KzoneDD wrote:-Mods ... I'm not clear on those. In toddler-simple-language: if we decide to run a server that vwas modded, how would players interact with the server? If they connect with a vanilla install, will they be prompted? Will (which would be ideal and a major selling point over MC) they get to load the mods transparently? Put yourself in the shoes of a Windows-using casual gamer; is this painless?
If not, is there way to offer one-stop download and install? (Again: for the worst users, so OSX/Windows... Linux gamers are used to pain... ;) )
-Grief protection: I see a rollback option, but on a busy server rolling back may be as bad as the grief damage; you roll back legit builds, too, after all. How are the other protections, and have they stood the test against comitted 11-year-old shits with parents too concerned with basing Obama on FB too monitor their larvae? (Yeah, drawing on a real world case here.)
-I see Minetest was built in C++ and LUA. Good, Java simply does not offer the power needed. BUT, in real terms, how does the game perform? How would it benchmark against a MC/Bukkit combo? In terms of server load and player experience? (We have staff with fairly decent, if older, hardware who can barely get 20 FPS on our server, and we took great care to unburden the thing as much we could.)
- Has this game performed consistently on a large (1000+ players) server for anyone so far?
- How would you rate the difficulty for porting existing MC mods to MT? Is this an avenue to explore at all?
- I would most likely start off light, say an i3 with 16 Gb RAM and a 50 Mbps up/down pipe. Simply, because that's what I can build from parts I have within reach. How would the game like that as a home? Would it try to escape?
KzoneDD wrote: Put yourself in the shoes of a Windows-using casual gamer; is this painless?
KzoneDD wrote:-How would you rate the difficulty for porting existing MC mods to MT? Is this an avenue to explore at all?
KzoneDD wrote:-Grief protection: I see a rollback option, but on a busy server rolling back may be as bad as the grief damage; you roll back legit builds, too, after all.
KzoneDD wrote:First off: I sincerely appologise, I am certain most of these questions are addressed elsewhere, but I looked around the forums for two days and I simply am not confident I have full, brief, yes/no/brief explanation answers.
KzoneDD wrote:Some background:
I used to admin on Odyssianrealms, then co-own Revenge Cove. At the moment RC is being rebuilt as Feed the Beast (Direwolf) server and we expect to be fully live soon. I am an Open Source advocate and run various Linuxes on private machines although work keeps me tied to an OS that will run Adobe software. (I am partner in a small business that builds accessible websites. Not something you get rich from, but I like it.) As such I kept an eye on various open source games. Actually, MS buying Mojang does not have me that worried, but it does mean there's now sufficient impetus to find alternatives to MC for many, so I am considering starting a Minetest server in parallel with RC. My beef with MC is more along the lines of it not being very well built. To give an example; we had a 16 y/o programmer pretty much 'unthrothle' MC for our server and upped performance significantly. That should tell you something.
KzoneDD wrote:-I see Minetest was built in C++ and LUA. Good, Java simply does not offer the power needed. BUT, in real terms, how does the game perform? How would it benchmark against a MC/Bukkit combo? In terms of server load and player experience? (We have staff with fairly decent, if older, hardware who can barely get 20 FPS on our server, and we took great care to unburden the thing as much we could.)
KzoneDD wrote:-Mods ... I'm not clear on those. In toddler-simple-language: if we decide to run a server that vwas modded, how would players interact with the server? If they connect with a vanilla install, will they be prompted? Will (which would be ideal and a major selling point over MC) they get to load the mods transparently? Put yourself in the shoes of a Windows-using casual gamer; is this painless?
If not, is there way to offer one-stop download and install? (Again: for the worst users, so OSX/Windows... Linux gamers are used to pain... ;) )
KzoneDD wrote:-Grief protection: I see a rollback option, but on a busy server rolling back may be as bad as the grief damage; you roll back legit builds, too, after all. How are the other protections, and have they stood the test against comitted 11-year-old shits with parents too concerned with basing Obama on FB too monitor their larvae? (Yeah, drawing on a real world case here.)
KzoneDD wrote:-Has this game performed consistently on a large (1000+ players) server for anyone so far?
-How would you rate the difficulty for porting existing MC mods to MT? Is this an avenue to explore at all?
-I would most likely start off light, say an i3 with 16 Gb RAM and a 50 Mbps up/down pipe. Simply, because that's what I can build from parts I have within reach. How would the game like that as a home? Would it try to escape?
hoodedice wrote:3. Kids - The biggest problem, currently. They will hang onto your server and lag out your other, active players. Sometimes, they will play the game all day long.
george wrote:3. Kids - The biggest problem, currently. They will hang onto your server and lag out your other, active players. Sometimes, they will play the game all day long.
For the kids reading this, checkout Liberty Land. We have set up our server in such a way that people can play on it, all day even! Really. I know, it's a novel concept. We're weird like that.
Seriously though, if players logging onto your server is a problem, you're doing something wrong. How can you ever expect minetest to be taken seriously if adoption and activity is a problem?
And, hi KzoneDD! Welcome to Minetest :)
hoodedice wrote:george wrote:3. Kids - The biggest problem, currently. They will hang onto your server and lag out your other, active players. Sometimes, they will play the game all day long.
For the kids reading this, checkout Liberty Land. We have set up our server in such a way that people can play on it, all day even! Really. I know, it's a novel concept. We're weird like that.
Seriously though, if players logging onto your server is a problem, you're doing something wrong. How can you ever expect minetest to be taken seriously if adoption and activity is a problem?
And, hi KzoneDD! Welcome to Minetest :)
Well, servers have to be ready beforehand for handling kids. You can't have kids on a server with majority of adults.
-I would most likely start off light, say an i3 with 16 Gb RAM and a 50 Mbps up/down pipe. Simply, because that's what I can build from parts I have within reach. How would the game like that as a home? Would it try to escape?
KzoneDD wrote:I agree; kids on a server require staff that is extra vigilant. Many a ban hammer came down because of the following two questions in rapid succession: how old are you? Wanna skype?...
george wrote:And to actually reply to one of your questions KzoneDD-I would most likely start off light, say an i3 with 16 Gb RAM and a 50 Mbps up/down pipe. Simply, because that's what I can build from parts I have within reach. How would the game like that as a home? Would it try to escape?
Do you actually have 50Mbps UP? If so, everything else will be just fine, at least in the near future. What do I mean by that? Lets compare to Liberty Land.
Liberty Land currently runs on a $20/month DigitalOcean vps. This gives us: 2GB RAM and two processor cores. Our outgoing bandwidth usage has never exceeded 5Mbps. You can see system and application stats here. Also, you can compare our "players online" with the public server list (experiencing some problems at the moment) and see that we are one of the top servers in terms of active players. Also note that we have over 90 mods running (which is fairly typical but affects performance). And we're doing all that with less than 1s applicaction max_lag (an internal metric of minetestserver)
Considering all this, for the typical peak 30-35 online players that we see right now on most servers, your machine should be golden. Of course, that's not a lot compared to 1000+ but I don't know if there have ever been that many players on a minetest server. We hope to actually reach that, and then I'll have to update this post. :)
twoelk wrote:KzoneDD wrote:I agree; kids on a server require staff that is extra vigilant. Many a ban hammer came down because of the following two questions in rapid succession: how old are you? Wanna skype?...
you may want to study the chat on:
IRC: irc.inchra.net, channel #minetest
http://webchat.inchra.net/#minetest
several servers have their ingame chat connected to that irc channel. It can be quite fast paced at peak times.
I'm loving this game more and more...
The statement "This server is not a dating service" or something similar is among others an automated standard information triggered quite often ;-P
hoodedice wrote:No, there is no central IP banning, and I don't think it is recommended to IP ban anyway.
onpon4 wrote:IP bans are probably one of the dumbest ideas ever implemented on the Internet. IP addresses rotate all the time for most people, and evading an IP ban is as easy as finding a proxy: a neighbor, a library, an Internet cafe, or even Tor. What IP bans end up doing is causing massive collateral damage, harming those who share their Internet access and those who have a need to be anonymous the most, and very little benefit in comparison. I can't tell you how frustrating it is when I want to participate in some forum anonymously, but I can't because all Tor nodes have been used by spammers at one point and IP banned. Of course, this isn't likely to apply to Minetest (I don't know if you can even access a Minetest server through Tor); I'm just talking about IP bans in general.
Far better than IP bans is a system of verification to filter out undesirables from the beginning. Actually, many Minetest servers already do this by not giving building privileges to players until they somehow verify that they understand the rules, but it could be taken even further: perhaps you could be required to slowly work your way up to full privileges. Bad griefers just aren't going to come if you have to spend a disproportionate amount of time earning the trust of the server admins first, unless you have an incredible grudge against the server for some reason, and even if you are that devoted, the cases of griefing would be forcibly limited to once every [however long it takes them to get enough privileges], unless they start correctly guessing people's passwords.
onpon4 wrote:perhaps you could be required to slowly work your way up to full privileges.
hoodedice wrote:Hardware: Yes, Minetest is under a process of painful rewriting, and significant optimization. The biggest deal with Minetest is yes, its poor utilization of dedicated GPUs. If you have a intel i3 with like, a R9 290x_2, it will probably not perform as well as an i7 or even an AMD A10. Why? Because the GPU is massively under-utilized. Most of the processing is done on the CPU itself. There was a long post by Celeron55, the guy who started this Minetest thing, explaining why Minetest performs poorly. If I recall correctly, the main kinks were:
max_block_generate_distance = 5
max_block_send_distance = 5
max_simultaneous_block_sends_per_client = 5
max_simultaneous_block_sends_server_total = 30
time_send_interval = 10
active_block_range = 1
server_map_save_interval = 15.3
Calinou wrote:hoodedice wrote:Hardware: Yes, Minetest is under a process of painful rewriting, and significant optimization. The biggest deal with Minetest is yes, its poor utilization of dedicated GPUs. If you have a intel i3 with like, a R9 290x_2, it will probably not perform as well as an i7 or even an AMD A10. Why? Because the GPU is massively under-utilized. Most of the processing is done on the CPU itself. There was a long post by Celeron55, the guy who started this Minetest thing, explaining why Minetest performs poorly. If I recall correctly, the main kinks were:
You're purely talking about clients here. Yes, the game is quite CPU-bottlenecked, but if you disable some settings like clouds, parallax occlusion and waving stuff, you'll get quite good performance.
KzoneDD: Look at Server performance settings. I use these settings, which decrease CPU and bandwidth usage greatly without affecting user experience much:Your phone or window isn't wide enough to display the code box. If it's a phone, try rotating it to landscape mode.
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max_block_generate_distance = 5
max_block_send_distance = 5
max_simultaneous_block_sends_per_client = 5
max_simultaneous_block_sends_server_total = 30
time_send_interval = 10
active_block_range = 1
server_map_save_interval = 15.3
If you need a fast yet functional mobs mod, try this one, it's based on PilzAdam's Simple Mobs.
To reduce the amount of “uncontributing” players (in short, players who connect then do nothing useful), you can disallow empty passwords (which helps against accounts being cracked in too), enable strict protocol version checking (which prevents old clients from connecting) or even use a default password, which you disclose somewhere such as a forum topic.
You can give the basic_privs privilege to people you trust: they can grant and revoke the “interact” and “shout” privileges, which respectively lets players interact with the world (such as building) and talk (so they can be muted).
a server I won't name
george wrote:a server I won't name
Maybe you should. Admins can't know about everything. :)
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