Minetest Modding Competition Discussion

Chanku
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Minetest Modding Competition Discussion

by Chanku » Wed May 20, 2015 03:04

Today I had a rather interesting idea, and that is a Minetest Modding Competition. Think of a Ludem Dare or Minecraft Modjam type competition, but for Minetest Mods.

However I'm not sure about certain things like the time limit, or if teams would be allowed, or if there would/should be a theme, and even the name of the competition. (These are just a few examples.)
 

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Re: Minetest Modding Competition Discussion

by OldCoder » Wed May 20, 2015 10:19

Let's call the Minetest mod competition TestJam. There will be cash prizes. The best mods will be featured in some of the OldCoder worlds. Credits will also appear on the OldCoder world news screens for a period of time after the competition.

The following is simply a proposal. Feel free to suggest changes.

Suggested rules for TestJam:

1. Voting:

1a. Entries will be judged by a panel of senior Minetest people *or* by the community. This is to be determined.

1b. Each voter will be given three points to assign to entries as he or she wishes. All three points may be given to one mod or they may be divided up.

1c. Entries are to be awarded points based on three factors: Originality, clean entertainment or humor, and usefulness. They only need to excel in one category though excelling in multiple categories will mean additional points.

1d. Voting decisions are not final until the competition is closed. In other words, voters can change their minds until the ending date.

1e. If voting is by the community, as opposed to a panel, there must be at least 25 voters for cash prizes to be awarded.

1f. Votes are to be public. This will allow mistakes to be corrected and also help with any questions about fairness.

1g. Challenges to the final results will only be allowed for a short period after the final results are posted.

2. Prizes:

2a. The top three mods, based on points, will be designated Gold, Silver, and Bronze winners. The authors of these mods will be awarded cash and recognition, subject to all of the rules. Lower tier mods may receive recognition as well.

2b. To be paid, a mod author will need to have a U.S. Paypal account. The competition is not responsible for Paypal problems or issues.

2c. Cash prizes will be paid for by donations. OldCoder will match donations by others up to a limit of $200 USD, meaning that total cash prizes may be $400 USD. However, if donations by others do not reach at least $25 USD, there will be no cash prizes and donations will be returned.

If there are $25 USD to $200 USD in donations, then, taking OldCoder's share into account, total cash prizes will be from $50 USD to $400 USD. The Gold winner will receive 50% of the total. The Silver winner will receive 30%. The Bronze winner will receive 20%.

2d. Cash winners may waive the cash part of their winnings. In this event, the amount waived will be awarded to authors below the Gold, Silver, or Bronze level. This will also apply in cases where cash winners can't collect their winnings for other reasons. The allocation system to be used is to be determined.

3. Mod dependencies:

3a. No hard dependencies other than default. Mods are expected to work with both standard minetest_game and Carbone whether or not default is a hard dependency.

3b. Soft dependencies such as bacon? are allowed. A soft dependency means that a mod will work well both with and without the dependency.

3c. Soft dependencies on heavy mods or modpacks such as Technic, Pipeworks, or Mesecons are discouraged.

4. Additional rules for mods:

4a. These are to be new mods, as in not previously linked to in the Minetest forums or mod database or downloadable through information provided therein.

4b. Mods must be non-trivial, rated G, PG, or PG-13 based on U.S. standards, and copyright and trademark clear. Mods that do not meet these standards, or that have appeared previously in the forums, will be rejected prior to judging and will not count towards the dozen minimum.

4c. People may submit more than one mod. If they do so, the mods submitted are expected to be significantly different from each other as opposed to minor variations.

4d. Only mods with Free and Open Source (FOSS) Licenses are accepted. Additionally, reuse of existing code or media is permitted, provided that a mod is largely new, but only mods that properly attribute creators of existing code or media can win.

5. Miscellaneous rules:

5a. The competition will start on a date to be determined and will run until a dozen mods are received or one month has passed, whichever is longer. If a dozen mods are not received, there will be no cash prizes and donations will be returned.

5b. Competitors or their family members are not eligible to judge or vote in the competition.

Some issues to be settled:

Q1. Voting by community vs. a panel of judges.

lightonflux and Chenku vote for community voting. lightonflux suggests: If voting in the forums is used, then have a rule that a valid vote has to come from a account that is X months old. So people don't create new accounts to vote.

OldCoder says: If it's a community vote, we'll need to be able to identify unique voters. Conducting the vote in the forums and limiting it to existing members would address this. But if there are long-term players who aren't in the forums, I'd recommend that they be allowed to vote.

Q2. Length of competition and start date.

Consensus seems to be for a month-long competition. So, should this be for the month of July or should it run from mid-June to mid-July?
Last edited by OldCoder on Fri May 22, 2015 00:29, edited 19 times in total.
 

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Re: Minetest Modding Competition Discussion

by jojoa1997 » Wed May 20, 2015 10:26

Ooh this sounds fun. Though what if somebody doesn't want the cash prize. Maybe a rank on the forums might be a prize?
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Re: Minetest Modding Competition Discussion

by OldCoder » Wed May 20, 2015 10:29

Edited to take that point into account. Decide how forum rankings work and that can go into it too.
 

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Re: Minetest Modding Competition Discussion

by ExeterDad » Wed May 20, 2015 12:00

I'd be willing to kick in some coin to the pool. As long as I don't have to create a Pay Pal acct.
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Re: Minetest Modding Competition Discussion

by maikerumine » Wed May 20, 2015 12:19

This sounds like fun!
Quick question: Do the mods have to be 100% original code or can we use other codes from different mods with slight changes?
 

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Re: Minetest Modding Competition Discussion

by rubenwardy » Wed May 20, 2015 12:24

13 is unclear, I don't want to give up my copyright. Maybe change it to open source entries only.

I suggest starting this in or after July, as it is exam session for me. :(
 

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Re: Minetest Modding Competition Discussion

by Nathan.S » Wed May 20, 2015 14:01

I'd put up some money for this, it's always good to get some new fresh mods, and it might even drive some interest in modding for people that might just be playing and not modding.
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Re: Minetest Modding Competition Discussion

by OldCoder » Wed May 20, 2015 16:31

jojoa1997: Regarding waiver of cash prize, I've edited the post to address the point. Regarding forum rankings, this should be discussed in this thread.

ExeterDad:
Regarding non-Paypal donations, all right. This wouldn't be immediate, so there would be time to work things out.

maikerumine:
Regarding reuse of code, good question. It should be settled in this thread before the competition starts.

rubenwardy: Regarding copyright, I was speaking generally and have edited the point in question.

rubenwardy: Regarding start date, this should be settled in this thread but it would not be before mid-June. Perhaps we could let it run for one month; for example, June 15 to July 15 or July 1 to July 31. A month-long competition might work if we posted screenshots and remarks as mods were submitted; this would help to maintain interest.

Nathan S:
Regarding offer of donation, all right. I'll match it up to the point where the $200 total from everybody is reached.
 

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Re: Minetest Modding Competition Discussion

by lightonflux » Wed May 20, 2015 19:10

Make point 13 "Only mods with Free and Open Source Licenses are accepted. The license has to be on the OSI or FSF list. No self written licenses. " We don't want to involve lawyers so we don't want to deal with problems like the "Don't do evil" license which JSMin uses. Also copyright is a non issue. We don't have to mention it at all. As we don't request transfer of IP. It should be also noted that some countries like Germany don't have the notation that it can be transferred. So all rights on the mods remain as they are before the person submitted the mod.

Also: "Only mods that attribute work by others (code, music, graphics) correctly can win."
Maybe submitters can enter the competition with a mod that has wrong/improper attribution, but they can only win if they corrected attribution by some deadline. Because if some new talents join the competition that don't know yet how to attribute code correctly, then they should have the chance to learn it in time. aka errors will be made but have to be fixed by the deadline!

Reuse of other peoples code should be allowed. I don't think a mod that only changes textures has the chance to win, so i don't we should have a rule that forbids reuse. But attribution needs to be proper if the submitter wants to be awarded the price.

If voting by forum members is applied, then have a rule that a valid vote has to come from a account that is X month old. So people don't create new accounts to vote.
 

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Re: Minetest Modding Competition Discussion

by Chanku » Wed May 20, 2015 20:27

Personally I think the competition should have voting done by the community, instead of judges (Although perhaps have things like people who are willing to step in and uphold the rules). Furthermore the entires should be original and code should be original. I also personally think that it should be one entry-per-person. If it's no teams, then you must write the code on your own. If it's teams then only team members are allowed to work on your project.

Although perhaps team mods and mods created by one person could/should be in seperate catagories...
 

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Re: Minetest Modding Competition Discussion

by Chanku » Wed May 20, 2015 20:32

Also as for the duration, I prefer Ludem-Dare style competitions, where you have a somewhat limited amount of time (usually a day to a week or so). Personally I would want something in between Ludem Dare's time limit (24 hours) to ModJam's Time Limit (96 Hours (4 Days))
 

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Re: Minetest Modding Competition Discussion

by Nathan.S » Wed May 20, 2015 20:37

Chanku wrote:Also as for the duration, I prefer Ludem-Dare style competitions, where you have a somewhat limited amount of time (usually a day to a week or so). Personally I would want something in between Ludem Dare's time limit (24 hours) to ModJam's Time Limit (96 Hours (4 Days))


For many of us, with family and jobs in that sort of a time limit we wouldn't be able to get much coding and testing done. By and large I only do real coding on Wednesdays and alternating weekends, due to my work schedule, I have time here and there to work on bug fixes and textures, but I can't do any actual real coding in short times.

I think it should be kept longer to allow for more/better mods to be created.
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Re: Minetest Modding Competition Discussion

by Chanku » Wed May 20, 2015 20:40

Hrm....well perhaps something a bit longer....but I think a month would be too long. Perhaps a week or two....
 

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Re: Minetest Modding Competition Discussion

by ExeterDad » Wed May 20, 2015 20:44

Nathan.S wrote:I think it should be kept longer to allow for more/better mods to be created.

Yes. I feel the same way. I think the contest should be about unearthing some exciting high quality mods that creators may not normally be inspired to make.
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Re: Minetest Modding Competition Discussion

by Chanku » Wed May 20, 2015 20:47

Perhaps about a 2-week period or so?

Edit: My main thing is that I think such a modding contest should be a bit more creative, and come up with insane/awesome ideas one might not have done otherwise.
 

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Re: Minetest Modding Competition Discussion

by maikerumine » Thu May 21, 2015 02:15

I think we should have a solid month to complete.
I used to do X-plane comps and we would need about that time to prototype, test, test more, then submit. All scratch based aircraft there, so with coding, testing, creating sound and textures, a month seems appropriate.

Like aforementioned, some of us just don't have the time fail to hammer out a job like this and retain some sort of quality.

I finished my mod this afternoon but it sucks, I would like to test and refine for a few weeks, ya dig.
 

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Re: Minetest Modding Competition Discussion

by Chanku » Thu May 21, 2015 02:22

Hrm...I guess there could be two different competitions. One short one and a month long one that occurs as well. (Although the two probably shouldn't run at the same time). Like how Ludum Dare has Ludum Dare Jam/Mini Ludum Dare. (This would also allow for different rulesets to be used, along with different things as well...)

Perhaps that could work....(If we go with TestJam then the short one could be called the TestJam Mini or something...)
 

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Re: Minetest Modding Competition Discussion

by OldCoder » Thu May 21, 2015 10:26

The main post has been edited to take the preceding points into account. Some points are listed as issues to be discussed further.
 

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Re: Minetest Modding Competition Discussion

by dstromberg2 » Thu May 21, 2015 23:44

+1 for this. Count me in as being willing to contribute some money towards it.

I actually created an account to see about starting a discussion towards other ways to donate financially, or possibly a bug/feature bounty program, but this sounds like a great way to do it, especially since several others are already behind it.
 

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Re: Minetest Modding Competition Discussion

by Don » Sun May 24, 2015 21:50

Love this idea.
What about an entry fee? Maybe $5 per mod entered? The money could go toward the prizes.

As for the time. I agree with a month. We would see more advanced mods if people have the time to write them.
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Re: Minetest Modding Competition Discussion

by OldCoder » Sun May 24, 2015 22:25

Don wrote:Love this idea. What about an entry fee? Maybe $5 per mod entered? The money could go toward the prizes. As for the time. I agree with a month. We would see more advanced mods if people have the time to write them.


1. Regarding entry fees, minors are likely to enter. Most of them won't have U.S. Paypal accounts or other ways to pay. I'd suggest encouraging entrants to donate $5.00 voluntarily.

As a related note, winnings will probably be paid by U.S. Paypal. So, minors and some adults may not be able to collect them. Presently, the idea is to distribute winnings that can't be paid, or are waived, to lower-tier winners.

U.S. Paypal doesn't need to be a fixed rule. However, the portion of the prizes that I pay will be handled that way.

2. I think it's settled that it will be one month. So, should it be from mid-June to mid-July or simply the month of July?
 

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Re: Minetest Modding Competition Discussion

by Chanku » Mon May 25, 2015 01:35

While Mid-June would give us a rather close date, July would give us more time to plan. Therefore, unless everything is together by Mid-June, July would be better.
 

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Re: Minetest Modding Competition Discussion

by OldCoder » Mon May 25, 2015 01:59

The month of July it is, then.
 

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Re: Minetest Modding Competition Discussion

by Don » Mon May 25, 2015 02:23

I like July
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Re: Minetest Modding Competition Discussion

by addi » Mon May 25, 2015 07:02

Excuse me if I have offended you somehow.
I had sent you a PM, because it does not belong to the subject. I apologize again.
 

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Re: Minetest Modding Competition Discussion

by ExeterDad » Mon May 25, 2015 10:53

I must of missed something. Suddenly I'm confused?
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Re: Minetest Modding Competition Discussion

by Don » Mon May 25, 2015 12:05

I do not know what I missed but I thought the competition was a great idea. The money is not important to me. I thought you did a great job with the proposed rules. I thank you OldCoder for putting so much effort into it. Part of the reason I was interested is because you was involved. I have been around for over a year and have come to know your name as one of the trusted. Without your involvement in the competition I am not sure I will be involved.
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Re: Minetest Modding Competition Discussion

by ExeterDad » Mon May 25, 2015 12:54

Don wrote:I do not know what I missed but I thought the competition was a great idea. The money is not important to me. I thought you did a great job with the proposed rules. I thank you OldCoder for putting so much effort into it. Part of the reason I was interested is because you was involved. I have been around for over a year and have come to know your name as one of the trusted. Without your involvement in the competition I am not sure I will be involved.

+1
This could of very well been my post. Although Don said it better then I would of.
Cash prizes aren't important to me as I wasn't planning to compete. I was however willing to contribute money for the cash prize to hopefully encourage more participants and in turn, maybe some great new mods would be realized.

It's not going to be possible for this community to thrive if people keep trying to stifle and break down one another. Very discouraging. :/
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Re: Minetest Modding Competition Discussion

by OldCoder » Mon May 25, 2015 23:16


1. Introduction.

I see that my post announcing my withdrawal from the competition has been deleted. I suppose that I shouldn't be surprised. But the announcement was on-topic. The deletion was inappropriate.

Will this post be deleted as well? I took the competition seriously and put thought into it. I offered to pay the bulk of the costs. I'm entitled to withdraw with some dignity. Are we going to be playing games about something as simple as this?

2. Announcement.

I'm withdrawing from involvement in the competition.

Reason: Last night, I was trolled in a minor way. Not a big deal. But some Minetesters, including one of the most senior people, saw this as an opportunity to engage in personal attacks.

The senior Minetester was especially negative. I said that I was trying to be useful to Minetest. He spoke of a side project of his. He said, "Mike also wants to do more for Xonotic. That doesn't mean we want him to."

This was the turning point for me.

I worked on this as a favor to somebody else. I offered to cover most of the costs. I tried to be useful. I'd like to wish the new organizers good luck and withdraw.

3. Advice to competition organizers.

I have no plans to leave Minetest as a whole. But a subfork of Minetest named AdultTest strikes me as a good idea. In a sense, AdultTest already exists. The formal name is Minebest. The IRC channel is Freenode ##minebest (with two ##) and the website is:

http://minebest.org/

If I organize things more formally, this will be a project dedicated to the following four principles:

* Safe For Work
* Bash Ideas Not People
* Be Helpful If Possible
* Only Invite People Who Like the Rules

These are the rules that I use in my Freenode business channel (##ventures with two ##). The new competition organizers and Minetest as a whole are advised to think about them.

Or this advice can be disregarded if the goal is to see the project fall to pieces as opposed to growing. In a FOSS world, one where contributions are voluntary and people have real lives to deal with, arrogance and incivility can mean the death of a project.

Regards, Robert (the Old Coder)

 

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