Community chosen release.

[mauvebic]

why do you expect us to fix the features you guys put into it?

It's more about extending than fixing. Implementing the missing sutff in it is not a small thing to do.

And after doing that, will I get what I want, or is it still an uphill battle?

[celeron55]

To be perfectly honest, I didn't ask for hud, and have no mod ideas in mind for it. Nor does it make my worlds more interesting, since i F1 + F2 before taking screenshots. That doesn't mean I have to knock it, since i know many modders do want that feature, but i don't see why I should drop what I want.

Stop whining and already go making your fork. And good luck with it.

[rarkenin]

Stop whining and already go making your fork. And good luck with it.

This is the, frankly, sour attitude that causes this friction and incommunication.

[Traxie21]

Oh
Hey
Guys
Look, over there, some chill pills!
Seriously, I smell a good amount of Arrogance from everyone here, arrogance+debate= bitterness/nothing good.

[celeron55]

Stop whining and already go making your fork. And good luck with it.

This is the, frankly, sour attitude that causes this friction and incommunication.

I don't even know what he is asking about, and such doesn't seem to be contained in this discussion at least. Maybe you should make a clear proposal at eg. http://dev.minetest.net/Proposals so that people would even see it? OTOH, I don't know why you should be the one to write such and not the 100 others with ideas. Basically our only reliable way of ranking the importance of things is that those things are important that the one suggesting them does or prototypes themselves.

[rarkenin]

Stop whining and already go making your fork. And good luck with it.

This is the, frankly, sour attitude that causes this friction and incommunication.

I don't even know what he is asking about, and such doesn't seem to be contained in this discussion at least. Maybe you should make a clear proposal at eg. http://dev.minetest.net/Proposals so that people would even see it? OTOH, I don't know why you should be the one to write such and not the 100 others with ideas. Basically our only reliable way of ranking the importance of things is that those things are important that the one suggesting them does or prototypes themselves.

I don't have any proposals at the moment, but I'll draft up a proposal system proposal in userspace.

[4aiman]

If you don't happen to know, I have been mostly out from MT's development for months now. And will be in the future too.

I perfectly know you were/are mostly out. That's why I said what I said.

I try to come in and consult stuff when needed, and try to solve the worst disputes. So taking me as an example is simply not a reasonable example at all. Also, initially MT was my personal project and I had my completely own ideas and plans, and didn't want any help, so that isn't applicable either.

You're wrong. You're a perfect example ;) And your words confirm that as well: devs too busy maintaining/doing other stuff.

[mauvebic]

Stop whining and already go making your fork. And good luck with it.

You and hmmm are meant for each other.

[celeron55]

Stop whining and already go making your fork. And good luck with it.

You and hmmm are meant for each other.

Maybe (except that I don't like him always either), but I'd seriously like to see whether you are able to make and maintain a worthy fork.

[mauvebic]

There never was a plan to make a fork, the plan was to add a worthy feature to this game, if it weren't for the obstructionist attitudes of it's lead developers.

[rarkenin]

Draft proposal: http://dev.minetest.net/Rarkenin/Proposal_System

Please discuss on associated talk page or here on the forums.

[celeron55]

There never was a plan to make a fork, the plan was to add a worthy feature to this game, if it weren't for the obstructionist attitudes of it's lead developers.

I still don't understand what you expect. Do you expect me to ban hmmmm from everywhere and put you in the place of him? Do you understand how impossible your demands are?

[rarkenin]

I'm trying to get power back in the hands of the community with this proposal. Banning hmmmm would be relatively unnecessary with this proposal if executed correctly.

[BlockMen]

A project needs always people who fill up certain positions. Ofc the members can change, but they have to be qualified.

We have a dev-team and that makes great work! if there is something you want to be added, then make it in clean code.
it is an impertinence trowing the code in and then say: now do the work.

And if the dev-team says no you have to options: accept it or make your own fork. Thats all!

[0gb.us]

C++-side mods that can make powerful changes outside the API. These would need to be installed client-side if need be, but would have a good amount of access to the environment by way of the proper access levels being given to the instances of server, client, etc objects. We install these if we want changes that can't happen in Lua. This is relatively similar to how Minecraft works with mods acting at the engine level.

The general idea about this is that we shouldn't need this because MT is an open source project. Maintaining many APIs is a pain, and compiling C++ modules for all supported platforms simply sucks.

Not everything can be done in the Lua API though, much of the needed changes are client side. For example, it should be possible to shut off the camera jerking. Can that be done in Lua? No. Maybe C++ add-ons are viable, at least on the client side.

If you don't happen to know, I have been mostly out from MT's development for months now. And will be in the future too.

I perfectly know you were/are mostly out. That's why I said what I said.

I try to come in and consult stuff when needed, and try to solve the worst disputes. So taking me as an example is simply not a reasonable example at all. Also, initially MT was my personal project and I had my completely own ideas and plans, and didn't want any help, so that isn't applicable either.

You're wrong. You're a perfect example ;) And your words confirm that as well: devs too busy maintaining/doing other stuff.

No, as he said, he doesn't really develop Minetest any more. So he's both not a developer and not a player.

[mauvebic]

I still don't understand what you expect. Do you expect me to ban hmmmm from everywhere and put you in the place of him? Do you understand how impossible your demands are?

You're exaggerating the whole thing. I dont expect you to ban hmmm, and I certainly don't want to take his place, nor could I. I'm simply saying he's being awfully territorial, and not open to any other ideas. Do what you want with this.

As it stands, new contributors don't seem to be welcomed. You should have just renamed it to minetest-hmmm, and my expectations would have adjusted accordingly.

What I want is a way to get new features, a plain 'No' isn't it.

[Jordach]

As it stands, new contributors don't seem to be welcomed. You should have just renamed it to minetest-hmmm, and my expectations would have adjusted accordingly.

What I want is a way to get new features, a plain 'No' isn't it.

Minetest lacks a certain WOW factor. More stuff in the API is a really good start, such as mob ai.

[mauvebic]

As it stands, new contributors don't seem to be welcomed. You should have just renamed it to minetest-hmmm, and my expectations would have adjusted accordingly.

What I want is a way to get new features, a plain 'No' isn't it.

Minetest lacks a certain WOW factor. More stuff in the API is a really good start, such as mob ai.

It does seem like we get bogged down arguing over the inane shit like mese crystals, and it blinds us to what this game is truly missing.

[Psychotic]

There never was a plan to make a fork, the plan was to add a worthy feature to this game, if it weren't for the obstructionist attitudes of it's lead developers.

I still don't understand what you expect. Do you expect me to ban hmmmm from everywhere and put you in the place of him? Do you understand how impossible your demands are?

Well arent you just a rainbow of sunshine.

[4aiman]

No, as he said, he doesn't really develop Minetest any more. So he's both not a developer and not a player.

I've said about "other stuff", so even if he do not code anything for minetest and do not play it - he still a good example. If you don't get my point - I'd rather try to explain myself once more: Celeron55's still here, discuss things on IRC and he know c++. He still have his "weight" or you can call it "power". He doesn't need to ban anyone, but he can influence core devs "team" for sure. And as far as I understand, every "no" should have good reasoning AND advice on what can be done to turn "no" into "yes". But not in the form "Fork it!" or "Recode it!" - both that answers add nothing to plain "no"... But that is all we have heard so far.

We spent awhile talking here about hmmmm and 'nays'...
Instead of that Celeron and others who possess good "minetest and C++ knowledge" could've give a piece of advice to help this and other rejected features be coded properly and eventually get added. This conversation is surprisingly "quiet" and "smooth" (compared to what it could've been), but pointless, as there's no progression - we still told to make a fork, so at least those who suggested this are against current implementation. Let's talk about what can be done to implement this in official builds and who can make it done.

[Casimir]

@all
Clam down and drink some tea.

You seem to consider the "core team" to be some oddly distant thing. And because of that, you want to work around the core team.

Yes and yes. But I don't want to work against the core team. I want to make the development more open and flexible, but I don't want to fight with the core team on what to change. So I took a step back and searched for a solution that wouldn't change anything about core development, but still provides more flexibility. So what I came up with is the thing in the first post. And I'm certain it can help developing. It could spread the load of handling all the pull requests.
Again, it is not changing anything - it is one layer above. The community release can also include the official one like "minetest+minetest_game+dwarfs+minitest".

If you want a release platform, you do it yourself,

See first post.

And the general direction is already defined: create a MC like game.

(Sorry for this picture. The alternative to Patrick would have been the single word "Goodbye".)

[mauvebic]

Thanks for deleting my last post, must be hitting close to home


I'd like to know though what exactly was it about the previous identical post that broke the rules.

[onpon4]

I don't mean to be rude, but if you honestly think the community can reach a consensus on what the best possible feature set of Minetest would be, you're naive. People will always disagree, plain and simple. The proposal to try to get some sort of community consensus on these features and then have developers waste their time implementing this "community version" is absurd.

Personally, I don't have a problem with the direction Minetest is going in. If you do, though, you can maintain a fork. Minetest is free software, where "free" refers to freedom, not price. I'm pretty sure the art assets are under free culture licenses as well. If you aren't satisfied with the way Minetest is, nobody is stopping you from making the changes you want, including the "community version" being proposed.

[mauvebic]

I don't mean to be rude, but if you honestly think the community can reach a consensus on what the best possible feature set of Minetest would be, you're naive. People will always disagree, plain and simple. The proposal to try to get some sort of community consensus on these features and then have developers waste their time implementing this "community version" is absurd.

Personally, I don't have a problem with the direction Minetest is going in. If you do, though, you can maintain a fork. Minetest is free software, where "free" refers to freedom, not price. I'm pretty sure the art assets are under free culture licenses as well. If you aren't satisfied with the way Minetest is, nobody is stopping you from making the changes you want, including the "community version" being proposed.

I see you're new here.

The problem is the mixed signals they send out. How they want more contributors but only contributors who already think along the same lines. How they try to direct what people should be working on. How they complain that developers don't play the game, but at the same time, don't think much of the player's ideas.

And now we're supposed to fork to develop the feature we want. But what purpose would that serve? so that in a year's time, when we've forgotten Minetest and Minetest has forgotten us, they can have a change of heart, add the feature, and act like they had a hand in its development when all they did was drive us away? Thanks but no thanks.

[Psychotic]

So now theyre deleting posts that dont agree with them?

So apparently this game wasnt as open as i thought, so basically the whole shebang now is most of the mods and admins telling the community, go fuck yourselves, your own your own.

And yet we wonder why we get made fun of by minecrafters.

Seems like the **** is about to hit the fan.

[mauvebic]

Seems like the **** is about to hit the fan.

If you think I set out looking for a fight, all I wanted to do was contribute something new. But it's pretty obvious by now im fed up with the constant roadblocks at every turn, the endless debating, and the infinite number of excuses as to why things can't get done. Proprietary games have a can-do attitude, because if they didn't, they wouldn't make any sales.

[Psychotic]

Seems like the **** is about to hit the fan.

If you think I set out looking for a fight, all I wanted to do was contribute something new. But it's pretty obvious by now im fed up with the constant roadblocks at every turn, the endless debating, and the infinite number of excuses as to why things can't get done. Proprietary games have a can-do attitude, because if they didn't, they wouldn't make any sales.

This. Pretty much this. What the hell happened to this game being open source? do i need to be a buddy to celeron and hmm to get anything added?

[onpon4]

So apparently this game wasnt as open as i thought, so basically the whole shebang now is most of the mods and admins telling the community, go fuck yourselves, your own your own.

Personally, I don't care about "open" or "closed" (only freedom), but this applies to open source as well: being free software (where "free" refers to freedom, not price) does not mean that the developers make it exactly how you want it. That is physically impossible. It doesn't mean that the developers make it similar to how you want it, either. It means that if you don't like how it works, you have the freedom to change it. You are given the source code and a free license to modify and redistribute it, so unlike nonfree software such as Minecraft or Microsoft Windows, you are not shackled.

[BlockMen]

mauvebic, Psychotic

=> Ultimate commit project (UC project) by Mito551

[mauvebic]

so unlike nonfree software such as Minecraft or Microsoft Windows, you are not shackled.

You're also free to buy or not buy proprietary software. And in a competitive environment, there is incentive to give the users what they want. You're also totally free to become a competitor yourself. But it's mainly the incentive to give users what they want that makes proprietary software popular, despite what FOSS would have you believe.