What is, what will, what sould be Minetest?

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Re: What is, what will, what sould be Minetest?

by MineYoshi » Sun Oct 02, 2016 22:17

SegFault22 wrote:
MineYoshi wrote:I don't know, at least for "religious" people Minetest is ok... After all doesn't have "sorceries" and "Black Magic"...

They would only disapprove mods which add sorcery and magick, because they don't know that its existence is intimately tied into all (valid) religions. Believing in any religion, especially christianity or judaism, brings with it the belief in that religion's magick and its usage, even if you never know about it. For example, black magick is a significant feature of devil-worshiping, but that doesn't mean any person who practices black magick is also a devil-worshiper; several jews and christians have practiced black magick before, but not very many do because it is so damaging to one's magick power and can cause horrible side-effects, since the violent destructive energy has to pass through the magician doing a spell, just like how the positive constructive energy flows through the magician doing white magick.

Please make the distinction by calling it "magick", because people everywhere associate "magic" with card tricks, stage "magic" and other sleight-of-hand.

I would like mods which add sorcery/magick, but only if they are realistic. Most people don't realize that magick is not the same as "energy-manipulation", as the effects of a spell are almost never instantaneous, whereas the effects of energy-manipulation can be instantaneous, such as lighting a candle or extinguishing it "with your mind".

Ok, you really need to learn more about the conception of "energies" we got (Christianity and some Jews), and that actually "Sorcery" is different to your concept, but that's another discussion and what we don't want is get too offtopic.




I think that what we need is more fun... Or an included subgame that features a better gameplay than "MineCraft", with things that you can't get so easy in that "Mojang" game...
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Re: What is, what will, what sould be Minetest?

by azekill_DIABLO » Sun Oct 09, 2016 17:00

about the name, i think we could change the name. when i heard of minetest i saw in my mind a poor cheap copy of minecraft made for testing, so not finite. Would be better to rename the engine to idk: Voxel Sandbox Engine
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Re: What is, what will, what sould be Minetest?

by MineYoshi » Mon Oct 10, 2016 16:34

azekill_DIABLO wrote:about the name, i think we could change the name. when i heard of minetest i saw in my mind a poor cheap copy of minecraft made for testing, so not finite. Would be better to rename the engine to idk: Voxel Sandbox Engine

-FreeMiner
-VoxeWorld
-BlockLands
-OpenMiner
-MineOpen
-TestCraft

Also, if as well this game as first was a test made by Celeron55 if i remember well.
People talk about freedom of speech, so i'll say that God exists.
Open your eyes!! See The big unicorn conspiracy.!! :D The government has been lying to us about unicorns!!
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Re: What is, what will, what sould be Minetest?

by rubenwardy » Tue Oct 11, 2016 10:29

 

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Re: What is, what will, what sould be Minetest?

by azekill_DIABLO » Tue Oct 11, 2016 19:39

.
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Re: What is, what will, what sould be Minetest?

by ErrorNull » Thu Oct 13, 2016 02:13

What 'should' be minetest? Meh. That's like asking 'what should be the purpose of life?'. it's whatever i want it to be. I do not require a special governing body to decide my life purpose, and i don't need an official stated purpose/goal for minetest either. i enjoy modding minetest to whatever i want it to be. that's what's awesome about minetest, you get an open source engine, and you customize everything else around it (minetest_game and mods) to your liking.
 

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Re: What is, what will, what sould be Minetest?

by azekill_DIABLO » Thu Oct 13, 2016 17:38

ErrorNull wrote:What 'should' be minetest? Meh. That's like asking 'what should be the purpose of life?'. it's whatever i want it to be. I do not require a special governing body to decide my life purpose, and i don't need an official stated purpose/goal for minetest either. i enjoy modding minetest to whatever i want it to be. that's what's awesome about minetest, you get an open source engine, and you customize everything else around it (minetest_game and mods) to your liking.


Aww this is true. Finally, this disscussion is a bit useless. We can all pull or push the minetest community in a direction or another. We don't need to have restrictive guidelines, funny names or objectives. We are an open source development community. We don't need freedom. We are Freedom.
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azekill_DIABLO said: Mineyoshi+ABJ+Baggins= TOPIC HIJACKED.
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Re: What is, what will, what sould be Minetest?

by MineYoshi » Thu Oct 13, 2016 17:44

azekill_DIABLO wrote:
ErrorNull wrote:What 'should' be minetest? Meh. That's like asking 'what should be the purpose of life?'. it's whatever i want it to be. I do not require a special governing body to decide my life purpose, and i don't need an official stated purpose/goal for minetest either. i enjoy modding minetest to whatever i want it to be. that's what's awesome about minetest, you get an open source engine, and you customize everything else around it (minetest_game and mods) to your liking.


Aww this is true. Finally, this disscussion is a bit useless. We can all pull or push the minetest community in a direction or another. We don't need to have restrictive guidelines, funny names or objectives. We are an open source development community. We don't need freedom. We are Freedom.

And that's the point of this discussion?
Make a declaration?...
(Ok, nope, that's actually a promise)
People talk about freedom of speech, so i'll say that God exists.
Open your eyes!! See The big unicorn conspiracy.!! :D The government has been lying to us about unicorns!!
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Re: What is, what will, what sould be Minetest?

by cHyper » Thu Oct 13, 2016 17:45

MineYoshi wrote:
azekill_DIABLO wrote:about the name, i think we could change the name. when i heard of minetest i saw in my mind a poor cheap copy of minecraft made for testing, so not finite. Would be better to rename the engine to idk: Voxel Sandbox Engine

-FreeMiner
-VoxeWorld
-BlockLands
-OpenMiner
-MineOpen
-TestCraft

Also, if as well this game as first was a test made by Celeron55 if i remember well.


the first owner for minecraft was notch....
the first owner for minetest was Celeron55...
but both are great developers...
 

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Re: What is, what will, what sould be Minetest?

by MineYoshi » Thu Oct 13, 2016 17:57

cHyper wrote:
MineYoshi wrote:
azekill_DIABLO wrote:about the name, i think we could change the name. when i heard of minetest i saw in my mind a poor cheap copy of minecraft made for testing, so not finite. Would be better to rename the engine to idk: Voxel Sandbox Engine

-FreeMiner
-VoxeWorld
-BlockLands
-OpenMiner
-MineOpen
-TestCraft

Also, if as well this game as first was a test made by Celeron55 if i remember well.


the first owner for minecraft was notch....
the first owner for minetest was Celeron55...
but both are great developers...

You're right, but maybe the fact that the players from one game don't like the other ones, sometimes make that exist certain opinions about each developer...
People talk about freedom of speech, so i'll say that God exists.
Open your eyes!! See The big unicorn conspiracy.!! :D The government has been lying to us about unicorns!!
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Re: What is, what will, what sould be Minetest?

by azekill_DIABLO » Thu Oct 13, 2016 18:08

I think both are great devs. But i always thinks this disscussion is pointless.
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Re: What is, what will, what sould be Minetest?

by MineYoshi » Thu Oct 13, 2016 21:58

azekill_DIABLO wrote:I think both are great devs. But i always thinks this disscussion is pointless.

It's likely trying to compare two things that are good by theirselves...
People talk about freedom of speech, so i'll say that God exists.
Open your eyes!! See The big unicorn conspiracy.!! :D The government has been lying to us about unicorns!!
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Re: What is, what will, what sould be Minetest?

by PureTryOut » Sun Oct 23, 2016 17:20

So, I'm just going to throw in my dime (is that how the saying goes?), if you guys don't mind.

I originally found Minetest when looking for a good FOSS alternative to Minecraft. Minecraft is awesome and all, but it lacks stuff like a proper modding API, cubic chunks (or at least chunks bigger than 256 high), and well, it's owned by Microsoft... The gameplay it offers without mods however, is solid.
When I found this game, it seemed like a good FOSS alternative, and with a promising Lua modding API taken in mind from the beginning, I became excited. However that quickly faded after only 5-10 minutes of playing. Some steps should be taken to make this game/engine/whatever more user-friendly, to eventually make it more popular. A few points:

    The main menu is straight up ugly and confusing
    Seriously, just look at it from a computer illiterate perspective. Then, look to Minecraft.
    I realize UI designing is hard, even more so for a developer which prefers to look at code, but something has to be done about it... I would first of all remove the "server" option from the menu. If people want to host servers, they can just do it the hard way and use it from the CLI or something. If they want to play on LAN, add an option for it once in a singleplayer world instead. Combine "singleplayer" and "client" into 1 tab. In that tab add a button for singleplayer. Once clicked, it shows a list of worlds and the options to delete them, or create new ones. Add a second button to that tab for multiplayer. Once clicked, it shows a list of servers. A filter to switch between the normal server list, lan servers and favorites would be good. I would get rid of the tab system myself entirely to be honest, it doesn't make sense in a main menu for a game.
    Move the option to play creative to a per world setting instead. Most players will play a world either creative or not, and not constantly switch between them. Setting this per world with maybe a "cheat" option of some sorts ingame would be better. Also, just assume "enable damage" on if "creative mode" is disabled. Nobody wants creative with damage anyway.

    Add a button to the "texturepacks" menu instead of having a seperate tab. Although this is not as important, it just makes more sense to have it under settings in my opinion. Opinions may differ however.

    The ingame "escape-button" UI is ugly, and too technical
    The average user doesn't want to see stuff like "build type", "run in place", static_sharedir" and others. A Minetest version number is nice, but should be shown in the form of: "Version: 0.4.14".
    Displaying default controls is good, but should be moved to the "change keys" menu. Even better, don't show the default controls at all, just give an option to reset back to default controls by clicking a button. Keep the main escape menu to buttons only.

    Remove the "Exit to OS" option, and only keep "Exit to menu". If people want, they can close the game by either closing the window using the tools their OS provides, or by a button on the main menu.

    Lastly, add a window to change graphics from in-game. Having to quit back to the main menu is annoying, especially when you're playing on a server. The same goes for texturepacks.

    The base game "Minetest game" is too... plain
    Seriously, there are not even mobs. I know the base game is meant to be plain, so the user can extend it for their needs themselves, but if you want to become popular in the mainstream, the base game has to exciting. Add mobs, add achievements, just anything to do. What's the point of having swords but no mobs to use them on. Start with the simple mobs Minecraft offers: zombies, skeletons, maybe a creeper. Then move on to some animals: sheep, pigs, cows, chickens. Give the default world some live.
    Most Minecraft players play without mods; either because they have no clue how to install them since they don't know much about computers, or they are just not interested: the base game might be fun enough for them. I realize for a lot of people, and even more so the Minetest community, finding and installing mods is part of the fun, but it should be an option; not a requirement.

    The "screwdriver" item seems too modern. Why can't people just replace the blocks they placed wrong? Games like this by default are supposed to be sort of in the middle ages. I know minecarts, redstone and others might not fit in that category either, but the screwdriver feels way more out of place.

    Add a sprinting option by either holding control or pressing W twice in rapid succession. I know there is a "fast" mode, but you have to grant yourself rights for it (see my next point) and feels more like cheating.

    Jumping movement feels... jerky. Falling down seems to slow, which straight up feels weird. And if you're standing against a block, why can you not make a full jump to get on a block higher? Right now the jump is cut-off and you're placed on the next block. This again, feels weird. The bobbing is good though.

    Lastly, the name should probably be renamed. "Minetest game" doesn't say much to a non-technical user, why not make it "Default" instead?

    Add the hunger mod (https://github.com/BlockMen/hunger), weather (https://forum.minetest.net/viewtopic.php?t=5245), nether (https://forum.minetest.net/viewtopic.php?t=5790), creatures mob engine (https://forum.minetest.net/viewtopic.php?t=8638), proper item pickup (https://forum.minetest.net/viewtopic.php?t=2656).

    Why do you have to grant yourself rights in a singleplayer world?
    If I want to fly, I would've turned on "creative mode". Why can I even turn it on when playing survival, and why do I have to grant myself permission to do that? I'm admin over my own world; as long as I'm in creative, I shouldn't have to get rights for that. Same goes for fast mode and all other permission stuff. In multiplayer this sort of makes sense, but even then it should probably be bound to the gamemode instead. Players can then have rights to switch between creative and survival.

Maybe you guys want this game to be entirely different, which in my personal opinion would be a shame. However I think that if you want this game to gain traction, become popular and also gain interest from more developers, steps such as these should be taken. I would love to hear your responses.
Last edited by PureTryOut on Sun Oct 23, 2016 19:14, edited 1 time in total.
 

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Re: What is, what will, what sould be Minetest?

by azekill_DIABLO » Sun Oct 23, 2016 18:28

I agree with most of what you said. I felt the same with this game. The only thing that took me back into minetest is that i love programmation. Als please add a working modstore. It doesn't show mods.
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azekill_DIABLO said: Mineyoshi+ABJ+Baggins= TOPIC HIJACKED.
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Re: What is, what will, what sould be Minetest?

by MineYoshi » Sun Oct 23, 2016 20:42

PureTryOut wrote:
    The main menu is straight up ugly and confusing
    Seriously, just look at it from a computer illiterate perspective. Then, look to Minecraft.
    I realize UI designing is hard, even more so for a developer which prefers to look at code, but something has to be done about it... I would first of all remove the "server" option from the menu. If people want to host servers, they can just do it the hard way and use it from the CLI or something. If they want to play on LAN, add an option for it once in a singleplayer world instead. Combine "singleplayer" and "client" into 1 tab. In that tab add a button for singleplayer. Once clicked, it shows a list of worlds and the options to delete them, or create new ones. Add a second button to that tab for multiplayer. Once clicked, it shows a list of servers. A filter to switch between the normal server list, lan servers and favorites would be good. I would get rid of the tab system myself entirely to be honest, it doesn't make sense in a main menu for a game.
    Move the option to play creative to a per world setting instead. Most players will play a world either creative or not, and not constantly switch between them. Setting this per world with maybe a "cheat" option of some sorts ingame would be better. Also, just assume "enable damage" on if "creative mode" is disabled. Nobody wants creative with damage anyway.

    Add a button to the "texturepacks" menu instead of having a seperate tab. Although this is not as important, it just makes more sense to have it under settings in my opinion. Opinions may differ however.

Ya' know you can do an easily menu for the game... Actually being made in LUA, so it's easy! Also, as well you can add the menus from forks, likely Freeminer...

PureTryOut wrote:The ingame "escape-button" UI is ugly, and too technical
The average user doesn't want to see stuff like "build type", "run in place", static_sharedir" and others. A Minetest version number is nice, but should be shown in the form of: "Version: 0.4.14".
Displaying default controls is good, but should be moved to the "change keys" menu. Even better, don't show the default controls at all, just give an option to reset back to default controls by clicking a button. Keep the main escape menu to buttons only.

Remove the "Exit to OS" option, and only keep "Exit to menu". If people want, they can close the game by either closing the window using the tools their OS provides, or by a button on the main menu.

Lastly, add a window to change graphics from in-game. Having to quit back to the main menu is annoying, especially when you're playing on a server. The same goes for texturepacks.

I don't see the issue, if it's for the "Super-Ultra-Special Hard to Understand texts", then i don't know what's the problem, afterall you can ignore them!
For "Exit to OS", it becomes useful, because the mouse can keep inside the frickin' window (it happened) and if you need to close the game, you justly can't...

PureTryOut wrote:The base game "Minetest game" is too... plain
Seriously, there are not even mobs. I know the base game is meant to be plain, so the user can extend it for their needs themselves, but if you want to become popular in the mainstream, the base game has to exciting. Add mobs, add achievements, just anything to do. What's the point of having swords but no mobs to use them on. Start with the simple mobs Minecraft offers: zombies, skeletons, maybe a creeper. Then move on to some animals: sheep, pigs, cows, chickens. Give the default world some live.
Most Minecraft players play without mods; either because they have no clue how to install them since they don't know much about computers, or they are just not interested: the base game might be fun enough for them. I realize for a lot of people, and even more so the Minetest community, finding and installing mods is part of the fun, but it should be an option; not a requirement.

The "screwdriver" item seems too modern. Why can't people just replace the blocks they placed wrong? Games like this by default are supposed to be sort of in the middle ages. I know minecarts, redstone and others might not fit in that category either, but the screwdriver feels way more out of place.

Add a sprinting option by either holding control or pressing W twice in rapid succession. I know there is a "fast" mode, but you have to grant yourself rights for it (see my next point) and feels more like cheating.

Jumping movement feels... jerky. Falling down seems to slow, which straight up feels weird. And if you're standing against a block, why can you not make a full jump to get on a block higher? Right now the jump is cut-off and you're placed on the next block. This again, feels weird. The bobbing is good though.

Lastly, the name should probably be renamed. "Minetest game" doesn't say much to a non-technical user, why not make it "Default" instead?

Add the hunger mod (https://github.com/BlockMen/hunger), weather (https://forum.minetest.net/viewtopic.php?t=5245), nether (https://forum.minetest.net/viewtopic.php?t=5790), creatures mob engine (https://forum.minetest.net/viewtopic.php?t=8638), proper item pickup (https://forum.minetest.net/viewtopic.php?t=2656).

Minetest isn't a commercial game, and it's subgame ain't too.. Also Minetest is for installing mods and test Subgames... The "Default" justly was made for giving regular gameplay, not super-ultra fun...

PureTryOut wrote:Why do you have to grant yourself rights in a singleplayer world?
If I want to fly, I would've turned on "creative mode". Why can I even turn it on when playing survival, and why do I have to grant myself permission to do that? I'm admin over my own world; as long as I'm in creative, I shouldn't have to get rights for that. Same goes for fast mode and all other permission stuff. In multiplayer this sort of makes sense, but even then it should probably be bound to the gamemode instead. Players can then have rights to switch between creative and survival.

Well.. I don't know what then... Fly in survival becomes useful, and more when you want to build a house without cheating with creative inventory... Also, in MineCraft you can fly in survival with commands too... Looks like you never used command blocks before...



PureTryOut wrote:Maybe you guys want this game to be entirely different, which in my personal opinion would be a shame. However I think that if you want this game to gain traction, become popular and also gain interest from more developers, steps such as these should be taken. I would love to hear your responses.


I don't know why so much thing with "popularity"... Don't cha' know that MineCraft is full of "Trolls" because it's "Popularity"?...
Also, "If you want it, you make it"... This is Open Source, so if you want to do any change in your game you can do it with all the freedom!
People talk about freedom of speech, so i'll say that God exists.
Open your eyes!! See The big unicorn conspiracy.!! :D The government has been lying to us about unicorns!!
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Re: What is, what will, what sould be Minetest?

by PureTryOut » Mon Oct 24, 2016 10:07

MineYoshi wrote:Ya' know you can do an easily menu for the game... Actually being made in LUA, so it's easy! Also, as well you can add the menus from forks, likely Freeminer...

See, that's the usual dev response from FOSS projects, and it's quite a problem. Just because I have some critics/discussion points, doesn't mean I can fix them myself. Sure I know a little bit of Lua, but that doesn't mean I could take up a rather big project like that. If I could I would love too though. I will look into it.

MineYoshi wrote:I don't see the issue, if it's for the "Super-Ultra-Special Hard to Understand texts", then i don't know what's the problem, afterall you can ignore them!

They're not hard to understand, they are just only useful for devs. Sure we can ignore them, but if you want a game like this to be accessible for everyone, it's better to hide such things by default. The interface has to be clean, and having such texts there doesn't really help.

MineYoshi wrote:For "Exit to OS", it becomes useful, because the mouse can keep inside the frickin' window (it happened) and if you need to close the game, you justly can't...

Honestly that suggestion was subjective, and I can understand if I'm the only one that would like it that way. ;)

MineYoshi wrote:Minetest isn't a commercial game, and it's subgame ain't too.. Also Minetest is for installing mods and test Subgames... The "Default" justly was made for giving regular gameplay, not super-ultra fun...

Why would it not being a commercial game make a different? Should a non commercial game just not be fun?
I realize what the point of Minetest is, but having a solid, fun base game wouldn't get rid of that. People would still be able to make new subgames, and add or remove mods. Nothing really changes.
Again, I'm looking from a "person who knows nothing about computers" perspective. For these kind of people a game has to be fun from the get go. Being able to extend/change it is just a bonus. I'm just not sure if this is your target market, but it would be a shame if it wasn't. I believe Minetest can provide a perfect, FOSS, playing experience for them.

MineYoshi wrote:Well.. I don't know what then... Fly in survival becomes useful, and more when you want to build a house without cheating with creative inventory... Also, in MineCraft you can fly in survival with commands too... Looks like you never used command blocks before...

Well I didn't say you should disable flying in survival outright. Just set it to be enabled in creative by default, and disabled (by default) in survival. If people want to fly, they can still change it ingame, or even switch gamemodes.

MineYoshi wrote:I don't know why so much thing with "popularity"... Don't cha' know that MineCraft is full of "Trolls" because it's "Popularity"?...

Popularity means more potential developers. More potential developers mean quicker updates, changes, new mods, etc.
Sure more popularity will cause "trolls" and "kids" too come as well, but they're not that hard to keep out of the dev forums. I'm assuming Minetest has a IRC channel or Matrix room, most dev talk can just go there, regular users will stay out of there anyway. And in the forums, you have moderators for that. Maybe you need more sure, but it's doable. You could even limit posting in the dev forums to people with a certain rank or something like that.

MineYoshi wrote:Also, "If you want it, you make it"... This is Open Source, so if you want to do any change in your game you can do it with all the freedom!

Again, the usual FOSS dev response. Just because I have some critic/points to change, doesn't mean I can do it myself. I would love to change everything myself, but I just can't. I don't have the knowledge and the time. I'm willing to help out where I can, sure, but my critics shouldn't be dismissed just because "he doesn't offer us a PR".


It's just that a lot of people love Minecraft, but are looking for a solid FOSS, not owned by Microsoft alternative. Either because they just prefer/want to run FOSS (like me), they don't trust Microsoft, or any other reason. With the modding and extensibility Minetest offers, this is the only really good alternative in my eyes. I know some other projects exists, but they either only aim to replicate an early version of Minecraft, have the same problems as Minecraft, or other issues. Minetest doesn't seem to have those issues, except for not trying to be more user-friendly.
 

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Re: What is, what will, what sould be Minetest?

by azekill_DIABLO » Mon Oct 24, 2016 10:09

However, minetest is an engine, not a game.
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Re: What is, what will, what sould be Minetest?

by PureTryOut » Mon Oct 24, 2016 16:36

That I understand, but that doesn't immediately mean you shouldn't provide a fun, good experience out of the box... People will still be able to extend and improve it how they want it, why would changing some stuff around prevent that?
 

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Re: What is, what will, what sould be Minetest?

by MineYoshi » Mon Oct 24, 2016 21:09

Well... You can still try to do a fork bit by bit!
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Re: What is, what will, what sould be Minetest?

by ABJ » Tue Nov 08, 2016 07:49

I have a great idea. Let's shut down Minetest.
 

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Re: What is, what will, what sould be Minetest?

by Mainpage » Thu Nov 10, 2016 19:39

ABJ wrote:I have a great idea. Let's shut down Minetest.

One question, why?
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Re: What is, what will, what sould be Minetest?

by ABJ » Fri Nov 11, 2016 18:05

Hey, you there, whatchu wanna prove, eh? A gr8 idya's a gr8 idya, like it or no!
 

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Re: What is, what will, what sould be Minetest?

by Wuzzy » Fri Nov 11, 2016 19:18

PureTryOut wrote:[list]The main menu is straight up ugly and confusing

I agree. In general, the UI of Minetest in general is a complete clusterfuck.
But I think the main menu is one of the “least bad” things in Minetest. It is not really hard or annoying to use.
It is just ugly, but ugliness is a different issue. I love the fact that advanced settings support was added recently.
Stuff like “Enable Damage” and “Creative Mode” are different issues, they have nothing to do with the main menu. The main menu just presents them.

What needs big improvement is the formspec API of Minetest. There are many features which I miss. :( The biggest one is currently support for scrollable read-only multi-line text. This is a very important widget and can currently only be implemented by hacks.

I would first of all remove the "server" option from the menu. If people want to host servers, they can just do it the hard way and use it from the CLI or something.

No, this is just stupid. Minetest should work out of the box in LAN parties. Your suggestion makes things harder for no good reason.
The solution against computer illeteracy is not taking everything away from the user, but educating the user. If a feature is not obvious, explain it. But I think it is OK to hide away obscure features. Starting a server is not obscure.

If they want to play on LAN, add an option for it once in a singleplayer world instead.

Sorry, this is another stupid idea. Who on Earth would a newbie expect that you have to first start singleplayer in order to play in a LAN? It's like the infamous usability fail in Windows: You first must click on “Start” to shut down your computer. xD

Combine "singleplayer" and "client" into 1 tab. In that tab add a button for singleplayer. Once clicked, it shows a list of worlds and the options to delete them, or create new ones. Add a second button to that tab for multiplayer. Once clicked, it shows a list of servers. A filter to switch between the normal server list, lan servers and favorites would be good. I would get rid of the tab system myself entirely to be honest, it doesn't make sense in a main menu for a game.

That suggestion doesn't sound well-thought out. I agree, the tab system is not the prettiest. It works, but it is not pretty. But I don't see why Client and Singleplayer should be merged. I think multi- and singleplayer have to stay CLEARLY seperate.

Move the option to play creative to a per world setting instead. Most players will play a world either creative or not, and not constantly switch between them. Setting this per world with maybe a "cheat" option of some sorts ingame would be better. Also, just assume "enable damage" on if "creative mode" is disabled. Nobody wants creative with damage anyway.

No, you are wrong. I frequently switch modes for fun and testing. Creative Mode is a major clusterfuck and needs a redesign anyway. Another player suggested to repleace Creative Mode by a per-player setting which is can be changed in the game at any time. IMO this would be MUCH better, as having a global setting for this is very inflexible.

Add a button to the "texturepacks" menu instead of having a seperate tab. Although this is not as important, it just makes more sense to have it under settings in my opinion. Opinions may differ however.

I am undecided about this. I think both solutions are equally valid.

The ingame "escape-button" UI is ugly, and too technical

I fully agree. Most or even all of this debug stuff can be removed without fears. The pause menu is VERY VERY old, dating back from 0.3, where Minetest was still called “Minetest-c55”. And the default controls listing is not needed anymore since the ACTUAL controls can simply be changed (and thus viewed) in-game.
And for those who think those infos are important I think those infos can be just moved into the main menu somewhere.
See also: https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/3845


Remove the "Exit to OS" option, and only keep "Exit to menu".

No. I want this button. Also, Minetest starts VERY quickly, so there is no big harm when you accidentally click it.

Lastly, add a window to change graphics from in-game. Having to quit back to the main menu is annoying, especially when you're playing on a server. The same goes for texturepacks.

I don't think it is important but it will be a massive amount of work to implement, I fear. I don't think it will worth the effort. I rarely change texture packs and even less frequently change graphics settings. Graphics settings are settings you have to get right once, then you probably don't want to touch them again.
Minetest is a game engine, not a testbed for 1000s of graphical options. There are other tools for this.

The base game "Minetest game" is too... plain

Yes. Minetest Game sucks still too much to be the #1 showcase game of Minetest. That's no surprise when you consider the leading 0 in the version number. :P Minetest Game is not even in beta stage.

The biggest problem is different: That the core devs do not have a real plan or goal. They just randomly add stuff they like for some reason, but there is no bigger picture. At least this is my impression; correct me if I am wrong. On the plus side, I have to say that it has been improved quite notably in the past releases. But it is way too simple to be of long-term fun. Especially in singleplayer. You basically HAVE TO install mods to get a decent gameplay.
Or you just make your life easier and install a real subgame. XD
I also think the idea that it is just meant as a “base for modding” is bad. Basically this is just an excuse for why Minetest Game is so incomplete. Frankly, this is asking the player to do the job of the game designer. :D
But isn't the point of a subgame to provide a complete experience to the player?
Don't get me wrong: I am not totally against the “base for modding” approach. It would be OK as a side or community project posted on the forums. But as the official subgame? For showcasing Minetest?? Meh.

I think it would be best if we, as a community, just give up on Minetest Game as a “lost cause” and try it with a more promising subgame.
Maybe Minetest should even abandon the idea of a “default” subgame altogether. So that Minetest Game is no more “special” than any other subgame. Maybe we should all just get down from our high horses in trying to make Minetest Game THE subgame.

The problem is not even Minetest Game, but the fact that there are no subgames at all which I would consider to be great. Some subgames already nicely stand out, but most of them are not very different from Minetest Game. Personally, I am getting bored by the 100s of Minetest Game forks. And even if not a direct fork, most subgames have VERY similar gameplay mechanisms.
Where is the innovation? I am convinced Minetest can already be used to create something great, even if the engine is not perfect yet.
The subgames which have great ideas and are more complex in gameplay tend also to have lots of bugs. Sadly, there are only few people who spend enough time with Minetest to create something great (and this includes: without bugs). Many people here have big dreams, but few are willing to actually do something about it. :-( And yes, this includes me. I have also many subgame ideas.

The "screwdriver" item seems too modern.

I don't think Minetest Game is supposed to be in a medieval or any particular setting. Also, it is quite useful, I see no point in removing it just for taste reasons. Also, AFAIK it is impossible to rotate a block around its axis by placement only. The screwdriver makes this possible.

Jumping movement feels... jerky. Falling down seems to slow, which straight up feels weird. And if you're standing against a block, why can you not make a full jump to get on a block higher? Right now the jump is cut-off and you're placed on the next block. This again, feels weird. The bobbing is good though.

Not sure about this, but it might be an engine issue. I don't really know how movement and jumping works internally.

Lastly, the name should probably be renamed. "Minetest game" doesn't say much to a non-technical user, why not make it "Default" instead?

LOL. “Default” is even lamer than “Minetest Game”. Who wants to call a game “Default”? Think about it: “Hey dude, have you played Default recently? It's great!”. Note how silly this sounds. On the plus side, this game name is very unique because nobody dares to take it. :D

The current name was the result of a quick poll, and oh well, “Minetest Game” won. :-/ Previously, it didn't even have a proper name. Just “minetest_game” (kinda unofficial) or even just “Minetest” (main menu title). It was VERY VERY hard to make the developers just change the name, and this was very much pushed by me. But at least it is now clearly distinct from the engine. So why I would like to see a different name, I doubt the developers have the nerves to start the process all over again.


I am pretty sure most of these suggestions have zero chance. Especially mobs (sadly).
Also, your suggestions are not uncontroversial.
Minetest Game devs are very, very conservative. I think the biggest reason for this is because so many mods depend on Minetest Game and it is used on many servers. Even small changes have chances for much breakage.
Also, the devs are very careful when adding anything “fancy”. They seem to be perfectionist. If a mod is not 100% perfect and approved by The Higher Council of Minetest Affairs, stamped 3 times and quadruple-checked by the secretary, it has no chance. ;-)
I think mobs are especially unlikely because I think the devs first want to add some sort of mobs support into Minetest itself. Also, I fear that a Minetest Game mob API will doom all other mob APIs into irrelevance which might further harm innovation in the community, so I would not personally like Minetest Game mobs as well.

Why do you have to grant yourself rights in a singleplayer world?
[/quote]
Because privileges like fly in singleplayer are like cheating. And cheating should be off by default. Non-cheating mode should be the default, while “cheating mode” (=having privs) requires effort.
I mean, it would be terrible if fly mode were on by default in games like Extreme Surival. It instantly destroys the entire point of the game.
What needs improvement is maybe a better user interface to the priv system in general. But on the other hand, everything in Minetest needs a better interface. XD
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Re: What is, what will, what sould be Minetest?

by Mainpage » Fri Nov 11, 2016 21:03

ABJ wrote:Hey, you there, whatchu wanna prove, eh? A gr8 idya's a gr8 idya, like it or no!

Really? That comment makes no sense.

Anyway just to add a bit to the discussion, I was thinking that a road map to add mobs to Minetest Game should be added. I'm pretty sure that some guy is improving the pathfinding algorithm, which is in c++ (not lua). I think that most mobs mods use a lua pathfinding algorithm because the game engine's one was to buggy. I honestly can't think of a good reason for not including a mobs mod in Minetest Game.

BTW does the noise algorithm (I think is in noise.cpp) simplex or perlin noise? If it is perlin, someone should implement simplex noise because for dimensions 3+ it is faster (if dimensions are N, computation for perlin noise is 2^N, but for simplex noise it is N^2.).
Edit: Fixed stuff (I always seem to find stuff to fix after I post.)
Edit: I was reading noise.h, and it looks like someone started implementing simplex noise.
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Re: What is, what will, what sould be Minetest?

by Wuzzy » Mon Nov 14, 2016 02:43

v5, v6 and v7 are all perlin noise mapgens. Biomes are also based on perlin noise.
I agree, Simplex noise would be a cool addition. Obviously, the existing mapgens can't be changed easily, as this will break existing worlds.

Oh, and I take back my rant about the current subgame landscape. I recently gave Lord of the Test and Pixture a shot (again). Lord of the Test has quite evolved over the time. Version 1.0.0 is still quite buggy but the gameplay is much better. Lord of the Test has really cool biomes.
Pixture is a very simple subgame but for its simplicity, it is really well executed. The atmosphere of Pixture is very well done and the game design is also well thought out. Although Pixture is simple, it is quite enjoyable and does not feel incomplete. It is refreshing to see new ideas being executed instead of just another Minetest Game fork.

Maybe I will write full reviews for these subgames later.

I think the decision to turn Minetest into an engine appears to have paid off, after all. :-)

I am maybe also kind of a love/hate relationship with Minetest Game. xD I complain so much about Minetest Game, but at the end of the day, I use it more often than I like to admit. Hell, I even wrote a mod basically only dedicated to Minetest Game (mtg_plus).
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