[Game] Magichet: "The 1.2 'Non-Commercial' Release"

[4aiman]

Ok, I got your point.

Generally, if someone does some work - it's normal to be paid.
That does not mean one doesn't have to ask (which you did - Thank you!), but still.

I look at this like so: someone need to maintain the server and pay for it. ;)
So, I'm okay with donations made to your server.
I'm also okay with any "letsplays" and/or "letsplayers".
Moreover, if you're going to fix at least something - I'm even more "ok" than before.


A long list of thoughts which well may occur unreadable O_o

+ Spoiler

Github repo:
It would be *very nice* of you to make a public fork and push any fixes there.
I'll pull all I need myself.

Note, that the license for a subgame forces your fixes to be licensed under WTFPL (so those may be re-used by any other person running magichet absolutely legally).

I doubt I would like to pull in everything - I have a VERY long roadmap, so it's just that not everything will fit in.

I can't say whether running a server equals to distributing, since only resources are being sent to players.
I'm not a lawyer.




You helping me VS me helping you (or not)
Turning unstable to stable would be a LOT of work.
I do what I can, but there's not enough testers and I can't afford a server like yours.

So, if you'd like to help, I'd appreciate having a copy of your bug reports list then.
Maybe something will catch my eye and I'll fix that in the original repo.
I guess that would be a bug fix for everyone - me and you.
That also would be smth I'd like to code.




Fixing bugs
I also doubt I'd be of any use for your organization.
I'm not against, but there's so much to be done.
And I don't want to argue about any particular fix or telling others what to do.
I don't want to depend on someone else's opinion when something that I've created is concerned.
I just can't and don't want to perform the "Celeron55" play with me starring as "Celeron55".
I'm just coding the stuff I want to code.
I have my primary job to code smth that I *don't* want to code.
I expect to get paid for anything I don't want to do or for fixing bugs for someone else.
That helps me to pay my bills :)
I think you'll manage w/o additional things to pay for ;)


All because you're coding the stuff you want too, I guess.
IDK how much and whether you, guys get paid for maintaining all that stuff, but if not - you definitely should be.
That's why I'm okay with you receiving donations.

TL;DR:
I'd like to be:
- aware of the bugs you've found
- independent in my development of Magichet
- having fun ^_^

I'm ok with:
- your organization receiving donations
- your organization being an organization with employees/employers
- you making letsplays and monetizing those
- you making a pay-to-play servers
- you having fun ^_^

You are to:
- release your fixes to magichet subgame under WTFPL
- properly credit me with a link to this very thread
- have fun ^_^

[Minetestforfun]

Indeed, the work is huge...

I agreed with all of your points, we think in the same way :)

Im adding you right now to our organisation. Welcome ! :p

Please, come to our dev IRC on irc.inchra.net@#minetestforfun-dev we will talk more about our mutual collaboration/projects :)

[4aiman]

I know it's been a while since the last tech-news on MGC updates but there are reasons for the delay.

However, the development itself didn't stop.

Keep an eye on the moon: Moon phases
^ Apparently I've messed up the texture name and the voice acting T_T
XDD

[4aiman]

Mg got wrong ppl on his team, so no forkers anymore.
Yay!!! :)

Meanwhile, Magichet got:
+ basic summon mechanics & GUI
+ one more enchantment
+ global save file
+ month/year cycle
+ animated main menu
+ a nicer way of drawing the unknown node
+ basic "night" theme (as in "music")

It also re-gained villages! :)

There's more changes connected with "globalization" of settings.

[mahmutelmas06]

Do you have comparison table for magiched over minetest ?
I really wonder what do you provide in your client version

I get error so i cant start game.

Your phone or window isn't wide enough to display the code box. If it's a phone, try rotating it to landscape mode.

Code: Select all

Error code
0xc000007b

[4aiman]

Do you have comparison table for magichet over minetest ?

The changes of the engine is described in this very topic and while there are few of them I really need those.
There's also a git repo with "stable" version and one can see the changes there.

If you're interested whether MGC will run inside MT, then I can assure you it will.
But you won't be able to enjoy some features.

As for the subgame..
No, I don't, but I can describe it briefly here.
Note, that I'm not monitoring the minetest_game daily.
Also note, that I won't go in any technical details - only what user will see.

MGC is an overhaul type of a game. It has many features out-of-the-box as opposed to "go-and-search-for-where-to-get-a-mod-you'd-like-to" minetest_game style of adding features.
So, in addition to what MT has,
+ MGC has 3d armour with 27 sets of armour available. Some of the sets give one set bonuses like immunity to hot blocks.
+ MGC uses heretic texturepack which is a not-blurry-faithful-type-of-a-texturepack TP for MT. I haven't re-done all textures, but I did over 1200. Over 400 textures were drawn from scratch.
+ MGC hunger mechanics is a 95% precise copy of the Minecraft's hunger mechanics (according to the official MC wiki)
+ MGC provides MC-like HUDs: armour, health, air, hunger, XP bar, wieldlist (9 items), itemname
+ MGC provides a set of MC-like achievements - both in "what" and "how-does-those-look-like" terms
+ MGC stairs behave exactly as in MC (see previous posts - there were screenies)
+ MGC tools are minetest_game_tools + moreores tools (and some more are yet to come). But the most exiting thing is the fact that digging times are being automatically calculated to be exact like those in MC. Moreover, tools get worn even if usage was "wrong" (e.g. attacking, digging dirt with pick, mining with axe, etc).
+ MGC has it's own mob API. it's got its problems but it is much more like MC and features: breeding, swimming, flying, wear-able armour (the same ones a player can wear), wield-able tools (the same ones a player can wield), attacking with exploding projectiles, pathfinding the target (what is to be pursuit) or aggressor (what should be avoided), being able to kill each other, being able to use different attack patterns in different circumstances and much more
+ MGC has beds improved to be "private" and something else I don't remember :)
+ MGC comes with 2 languages by default: RUS and ENG.
+ MGC has a unique set biome defs derived from Ethereal's one.
+ MGC has enchantment table which works just like that in MC 1.7 or earlier
+ MGC worlds are divided into layers. Going deeper requires to fulfil some conditions.
+ MGC's farming has MC crops (potato, carrot, wheat, pumpkins, melons etc) which look like the ones in MC and can be fertilized (as well as trees)
+ MGC has in-game book of basic "rules". I'm working on it's expansion
+ MGC features the afterlife: ectoplasm, ghostly_blocks, furnace poltergeists, reincarnators etc. The more is to come.
+ MGC features Industrial Craft clone (Voltbuild) with additional features, a Jetpack and CO2 sources
+ MGC features Nether (although lava is the only challenge there ATM)
+ MGC has abandoned mineshafts with treasure chests (and is waiting for villages to be returned)
+ MGC has a craft guide
+ MGC has a replica of redstone. No, not mesecons, but greenstone (also referred to as gStone).
+ MGC has a specialties code in-build which will provide a non-enchanting way to upgrade one's tools.
- There's no bones and no screwdriver in MGC.

MGC contains a lot more features (there was a list of what has been added during June-July cycle: viewtopic.php?p=184075#p184075) but a longer explanation is needed to cover those.

MGC is the nearest to the Minecraft subgame there is (in terms of mechanics). But I don't want to create a clone. I'm expanding MC as I'm expanding MT.

I get error so i cant start game.

Your phone or window isn't wide enough to display the code box. If it's a phone, try rotating it to landscape mode.

Code: Select all

Error code
0xc000007b

It looks like it's a BSOD.
This error has nothing to do with magichet. The thing is it's your HDD which is to blame.
If it's not too old, you can try running chkdsk on the partition (drive) you've placed magichet.
In case it's C:\ the command should look like

Your phone or window isn't wide enough to display the code box. If it's a phone, try rotating it to landscape mode.

Code: Select all

chkdsk C: /x /f /r

.
It will ask you whether you want the file system to be checked upon next boot.
Answer with "Yes" (or "Y"? I don't really remember) and reboot.
While booting, do *not* press any keys and let chkdsk to check your HDD and fix what it can.

If you have a rather old Samsung HDD the issue may be "hidden" in your power supply unit. Either due to the fact it needs to be fixed or due to the voltage in electric(al) socket (IDK how it's called, hope you got it) being too low.

Also I'd recommend using Victoria CD of MHDD to check your HDD for the BADs and try to relocate damaged blocks.

[Wuzzy]

The license of this subgame is astoninglishly restrictive.
Please consider to change it, to give the community more “breathing room”. ;-)

Here are some points of the subgame license I see as problematic:

- You do not use this subgame or any of it's parts (original and/or modified) to gain any kind of profit.

Say good-bye to YouTube Let's plays of any of the “bigger” Let's players (who use ads in their videos).
Also, you exclude it from posting it to any website with any form of ad, no matter how small. So even private pages would be affected. Anything can count as “commercial” as soon as one cent is paid. More about this later.

- You do not use this subgame as an employee/member of any organization - commercial or not.

This is a pretty astounding restriction. Any organization? There are many organizations around the globe, big and small, and you just exclude all of them. It is also not clear when a person counts “as” a member of an organzation.
This also means that, for examples, members of the press are forbidden to use it (i.e. in order to write about it). I hope you can guess by now that a bunch of other practical problems would arise from this restriction.

- Anyone who would like to commercially use this subgame or it's parts is free to ask 4aiman to grant him/her some additional freedoms for the currently available released version of the subgame (i.e. permission doesn't cover any of the future releases/updates). The permission will be yours with probability of 90%.

In other words, 10% of people won't get your permission and will be discriminated. The question is: Why?
Why not pushing the permission rate to 100% by removing the restrictions in the first place?

- By distributing a modified version of this subgame you agree that all your changes are licensed under WTFPL.

I have nothing against the WTFPL.
But when considering the subgame license, I realize that this clause is unfair.
I don't know whether you intend it or not, but this gives you the right take any changes made by other people very easily, but keep everything under your proprietary terms for yourself. I don't think that (potential) contributors would be happy to hear this.

###For the textures, 3D models, sounds
CC BY-NC-SA 3.0

This license is known to cause a lot of more troubles than you think of or you may intend. Basically, for the same reasons I listed at the beginning. If you have time, there is a longer text about the problems of the “non-commercial” clause here:
http://freedomdefined.org/Licenses/NC

In legal practice, the distinction between “non-commercial” and “commercial” is very fishy.
In Germany, it was actually judged that a governmental tax-funded radio (Deutschlandfunk) was illegally using a CC-BY-NC photo because Deutschlandfunk was seen as “commercial” under the terms of the license.
In other words, in Germany, using anything with a “-NC” in it is like playing with fire, no matter how “non-commercial” you think you are.

Here's someone writing about this in German:
https://www.aid24.de/rechtsblog/lg-koel ... n-cc-nc-20
(I don't have a translation of this, but you may try to use any web translator of your choice)

I don't know about other countries. I would even go as far and assume that anyting with an “-NC” in it should be treated as if it were under full copyright. But that's just my opinion.

[4aiman]

Edit: put all that text under a spoiler. Not everyone would like to scroll down that much :)

+ Spoiler

The license of this subgame is astoninglishly restrictive.
Please consider to change it, to give the community more “breathing room”. ;-)

Here are some points of the subgame license I see as problematic:

Say good-bye to YouTube Let's plays of any of the “bigger” Let's players (who use ads in their videos).
Also, you exclude it from posting it to any website with any form of ad, no matter how small. So even private pages would be affected. Anything can count as “commercial” as soon as one cent is paid. More about this later.

I actually don't mind to let one use ads in lets-plays or any kind of sites. I want to know where my stuff goes to. Partially because I'd like to gain some demographic info, partially because I'd like to know who is able to "let me down". Just ask and the one who asks will be granted what hi/she wants if I'm fine with it ;)

This is a pretty astounding restriction. Any organization? There are many organizations around the globe, big and small, and you just exclude all of them. It is also not clear when a person counts “as” a member of an organzation.
This also means that, for examples, members of the press are forbidden to use it (i.e. in order to write about it). I hope you can guess by now that a bunch of other practical problems would arise from this restriction.

It's like above - ask me and I grant almost anything you want. But only on a per-person/organization basis.
There were 2 organizations and 5 ppl who asked me so far and they had my permission. 4 of those ppl still have the permission. One organization+1 person went down because they were trying to cheat. The other organization suddenly decided I should fix its server-related issues and shouldn't ask anything in turn. It has deleted my stuff on its own.

In other words, 10% of people won't get your permission and will be discriminated. The question is: Why?
Why not pushing the permission rate to 100% by removing the restrictions in the first place?

Discrimination? Hell, no!
90% means there are cases when I won't give any permission whatsoever.
For example, to those who already tried to cheat.
Is it so hard to ask and then be nice enough to follow the rule "If you want more - ask for more"?
I don't think so.
I'd like to get ppl involved but I don't like when I'm being used.
It's been discussed here and judging by the result, it's me being aggressive. (Say, what? O_o)

I have nothing against the WTFPL.
But when considering the subgame license, I realize that this clause is unfair.
I don't know whether you intend it or not, but this gives you the right take any changes made by other people very easily, but keep everything under your proprietary terms for yourself. I don't think that (potential) contributors would be happy to hear this.

You're right. It is unfair.
That is the reason I re-coded many mods from scratch even though there were ready-to-use implementations.
I didn't wanted to be blamed (but I still am) for using more than I've done myself.

I want to be in control of something that took 2 years of my life while I was developing this (and I'm still is).
If I'd let anyone to use other licenses then I'd be forced to ask and to wait for approval every time I'd like to merge anything (because I don't want to change the license).

Too bad, you didn't mention the part where I let every author to use the code modified by me on the same WTFPL terms. It's all about trust. Those who would like to give me their help with some mod will eventually receive the whole mod they've contributed to on the same WTFPL terms. It's like investing to get more.
This may lead to whole game being released under WTFPL if all those authors will submit enough and then join to create a newly licensed subgame.

Those who really interested in the game, not in the licence will help. Eventually.

I've already told everyone that should there be a person who has added as much as me - I'll make MGC LGPL right away. I don't need to write that down in the licence, though. Because by doing that I'd actually promise to do that even if there will be only 1 useless commit in a repo forked 2 years ago.

I've seen no potential contributors but one. And he already got his money, his permission, gave me load of ideas and wrote some music.
Minetestforfun seemed to be interested, but the only wanted to use my... "lousy beta subgame" if I'm not mistaken in citing him/her (I didn't ask about the real name or gender - that's impolite).
The 3 othe ppl who gained some permissions are only using MGC in schools to entertain children after classes and/or to teach those basic programming in Lua.

This license is known to cause a lot of more troubles than you think of or you may intend. Basically, for the same reasons I listed at the beginning. If you have time, there is a longer text about the problems of the “non-commercial” clause here:
http://freedomdefined.org/Licenses/NC

Believe me, I've read a lot before going non-commercial.
But that was inevitable.
This licence already helped me twice and it still has a work to do.

In legal practice, the distinction between “non-commercial” and “commercial” is very fishy.
In Germany, it was actually judged that a governmental tax-funded radio (Deutschlandfunk) was illegally using a CC-BY-NC photo because Deutschlandfunk was seen as “commercial” under the terms of the license.
In other words, in Germany, using anything with a “-NC” in it is like playing with fire, no matter how “non-commercial” you think you are.

I'm aware of that case and the outcome.
But the thing is, it's the author who should initiate the hearing.
Asking me is the best way to determine the "terms of use".
I'm not against a "formal contract" designed by a lawyer.

Here's someone writing about this in German:
https://www.aid24.de/rechtsblog/lg-koel ... n-cc-nc-20
(I don't have a translation of this, but you may try to use any web translator of your choice)

I'll read that, I promise ;)

I don't know about other countries. I would even go as far and assume that anyting with an “-NC” in it should be treated as if it were under full copyright. But that's just my opinion.

[/quote]
I see what you're trying to say.
If you want to, I'd like to discuss this further in a constructive way.

[Wuzzy]

I actually don't mind to let one use ads in lets-plays or any kind of sites. I want to know where my stuff goes to. Partially because I'd like to gain some demographic info, partially because I'd like to know who is able to "let me down". Just ask and the one who asks will be granted what hi/she wants if I'm fine with it ;)

Well, in that case, this point can be safely dropped from the license, right?
If you're just interested in demographics or statistics, it would be better (IMO) to make it a friendly request (the word “please”) which is not demand (read: a part of the actual license).

This is a pretty astounding restriction. Any organization? There are many organizations around the globe, big and small, and you just exclude all of them. It is also not clear when a person counts “as” a member of an organzation.
This also means that, for examples, members of the press are forbidden to use it (i.e. in order to write about it). I hope you can guess by now that a bunch of other practical problems would arise from this restriction.

There were 2 organizations and 5 ppl who asked me so far and they had my permission. 4 of those ppl still have the permission. One organization+1 person went down because they were trying to cheat. The other organization suddenly decided I should fix its server-related issues and shouldn't ask anything in turn. It has deleted my stuff on its own.

I have no idea what you mean by “cheat”.
Demanding from you to fix a bug (not just requesting) in that way is rude, but that would be no reason to revoke everything (even basic usage) (if it that's what you're implying).

I'd like to get ppl involved but I don't like when I'm being used.

Understandable. Just don't work together with such people. That's not a justification to restrict freedom of other people.

That is the reason I re-coded many mods from scratch even though there were ready-to-use implementations. I didn't wanted to be blamed (but I still am) for using more than I've done myself.

Well, I personally wouldn't recode everything just to avoid “blames”.
And to be clear, I would not blaming you for using the work of everyone else.

I want to be in control of something that took 2 years of my life while I was developing this (and I'm still is).

Well, you are playing with words here. You do not just want to be control over Magichet alone, because this control is pretty trivial: Just make stuff. With that part I have no problem.
But from your writings I know you also want to be in control over the behaviour of other people

If I'd let anyone to use other licenses then I'd be forced to ask and to wait for approval every time I'd like to merge anything (because I don't want to change the license).

Welcome in the world of copyright!
By the way, I am not here to argue against share-alike.

Too bad, you didn't mention the part where I let every author to use the code modified by me on the same WTFPL terms. It's all about trust. Those who would like to give me their help with some mod will eventually receive the whole mod they've contributed to on the same WTFPL terms. It's like investing to get more.

Well, thanks for not restricting freedom in a special case, I guess?
Basically, this clause is just an exception from the general restrictive terms. Of course you will change the mods in a way that they will work best with Magichet, for obvious reasons. I don't think it is really likely that one could extract a single mod cleanly out of Magichet without further changes, I guess.
Also, this exception only applies to the original mod author.
Things would be easier if the whole subgame would fall under non-restrictive (read: no NC, no usage restrictions) terms instead.

This may lead to whole game being released under WTFPL if all those authors will submit enough and then join to create a newly licensed subgame.

Those who really interested in the game, not in the licence will help. Eventually.

I've already told everyone that should there be a person who has added as much as me - I'll make MGC LGPL right away. I don't need to write that down in the licence, though. Because by doing that I'd actually promise to do that even if there will be only 1 useless commit in a repo forked 2 years ago.

This is not really convincing. I am not caring about what the Magichet license may be in 2 years when the stars and your mood are right. I care about the license in the present.

I've seen no potential contributors but one. And he already got his money, his permission, gave me load of ideas and wrote some music.
Minetestforfun seemed to be interested, but the only wanted to use my... "lousy beta subgame" if I'm not mistaken in citing him/her (I didn't ask about the real name or gender - that's impolite).
The 3 othe ppl who gained some permissions are only using MGC in schools to entertain children after classes and/or to teach those basic programming in Lua.

And this explains your reasons to use NC in … what way exactly? o_O

This license is known to cause a lot of more troubles than you think of or you may intend. Basically, for the same reasons I listed at the beginning. If you have time, there is a longer text about the problems of the “non-commercial” clause here:
http://freedomdefined.org/Licenses/NC

Believe me, I've read a lot before going non-commercial.
But that was inevitable.
This licence already helped me twice and it still has a work to do.

This sounds very mysterious and vague. Your motivation to choose NC is still unclear for me.
Do you want to talk about this?

In legal practice, the distinction between “non-commercial” and “commercial” is very fishy.
In Germany, it was actually judged that a governmental tax-funded radio (Deutschlandfunk) was illegally using a CC-BY-NC photo because Deutschlandfunk was seen as “commercial” under the terms of the license.
In other words, in Germany, using anything with a “-NC” in it is like playing with fire, no matter how “non-commercial” you think you are.

I'm aware of that case and the outcome.

Then you also know that CC-BY-NC is a toxic license (from the user perspective) at least in Germany, but for some reason still unknown to me, you still insist on it (or at least the idea of “non-commercial”)?

Is it so hard to ask and then be nice enough to follow the rule "If you want more - ask for more"?
I don't think so.

ask me and I grant almost anything you want.

But the thing is, it's the author who should initiate the hearing.
Asking me is the best way to determine the "terms of use".
I'm not against a "formal contract" designed by a lawyer.

In other words, 10% of people won't get your permission and will be discriminated. The question is: Why?
Why not pushing the permission rate to 100% by removing the restrictions in the first place?

Discrimination? Hell, no!
90% means there are cases when I won't give any permission whatsoever.
For example, to those who already tried to cheat.

It's like above - ask me and I grant almost anything you want. But only on a per-person/organization basis.

You seem to be pretty obsessed with that permission thing. ;-)
Well, the problem I have with that thinking is, the license is useless because it is so restrictive. Basically one can't do anything without your explicit permission. That defeats the point of having a license altogether and one must treat Magicet as if it were fully protected by copyright.
And no, it is not “hard” to ask for permission. That's not the point.
Imagine all the mods or subgames in this forum were under similar licenses like yours. And now imagine your want to build a subgame out of a set of these mods. It would be a nightmare to get all those permissions and would require countless exchanges, plus delays (some people might be on vacation or something). Luckily, most subgames and mods in these forums are released as free software under non-restrictive terms. Magichet is the big, big exception here.

[4aiman]

Edit: put all that text under a spoiler. Not everyone would like to scroll down that much :)

+ Spoiler

Well, in that case, this point can be safely dropped from the license, right?

No, it's not. I'd rather explicitly state that lets-plays are allowed w/o explicit permission ;)
As for ads - there are too many cases to judge those as a whole.
I may add a notice about personal sites which show ads so the site owner would get site up and running for free.
But if that's some corporation's site with ads (or anti-ads) I'd like to deal with them on a "personal" basis.

If you're just interested in demographics or statistics, it would be better (IMO) to make it a friendly request (the word “please”) which is not demand (read: a part of the actual license).

I tried to tell "please". I don't really want to tell the story yet another time, so... let's say that just didn't work.

I have no idea what you mean by “cheat”.

Demanding to fix bugs is rude enough but I have enough guts to say I won't work for someone for free.
And when there was an agreement and I did some work, I've got no money, credits were removed, license ignored, and me left with nothing but a stress. Thanks to the license I was able to shut down the "infringerator" (like in infringement)

Understandable. Just don't work together with such people. That's not a justification to restrict freedom of other people.

I'm through this, honestly.
I don't want to "hope" a man will be honest enough.
I don't want to turn my pleasure to a source of stress.
There's Ruben who tried to force me to change the license (and much more) and then upon pissing me off called me aggressive. I don't want yet another community member to repeat all of that.

What are you motives for asking me?
Whom do you represent?

If you want to help me - I'll consider your altruism.
I may even change the license back to GPL but on Debian-like terms for the Debian-like reasons.

In case all you want you just want to help some abstract supposable person, then I'm sorry, but I won't even try.
I need real ppl, not just some random guys/gals who only want to tear my game apart to have even more generic mods.
Thanks, but no thanks ;)

Well, I personally wouldn't recode everything just to avoid “blames”.

It's not "everything".
I've left everything WTFPL-licensed in there (sometimes unmodified at all - see "wool").
But GPL is a little bit different.
Some guys were kind enough to let me use GPL code as if it were WTFPL and asked me if I probably would release a WTFPL or GPL version of their mods. And I did precisely that by letting authors to use my code on the same terms they let me use their.

But sometimes the code was written by ppl who wouldn't have answered me (or at least I believe so) or I didn't want to ask.
Now, how one can not be blamed if he takes GPL code and changes its license?
I *had* to rewrite quite a lot.

And to be clear, I would not blaming you for using the work of everyone else.

Well, there are a lot of those who would and who do...
But that is very subjective and hypothetical. I believe there's no point in discussing that.

Well, you are playing with words here. You do not just want to be control over Magichet alone, because this control is pretty trivial: Just make stuff. With that part I have no problem.

No, because I'd end up again working for some guy I don't even know who sells my stuff.
I told that many times: If my game is to be profited upon, then I should and I will be the first to profit from it.

But from your writings I know you also want to be in control over the behaviour of other people

You're right but only partially.
To be precise, I'd say that I want other people to respect my time, my life and the work I've done.
At this very moment there only 2 ppl who actually wanted to help me make a great game and have some income *with me* not *apart from me*.
Besides, there's an easy way to get free from my control: ask me for a permission to use my game commercially.
If that's too much to ask of someone for getting a work of 2 years, then I guess we'll never come to grips with that person.

Welcome in the world of copyright!

Yay!!! I've just avoided so much troubles!
Seriously, I don't want to depend on some pal my entire MGC-developer-life just because he fixed something ages ago.
What should I do to get free of that hypothetical dependence?
Yep, re-write his code from scratch using my own brains.

I just don't want to go the long way and code things by myself.
Those who are truly interested are already showed their interest and are doing their best.

By the way, I am not here to argue against share-alike.

I really don't understand what this sentence is supposed to mean...
Share-alike is a good way to reserve some rights - just like CC site states it.
But basically, what SA does is helping to control other people behaviour :)

Well, thanks for not restricting freedom in a special case, I guess?

No need to be *that* skeptic, really.
The guys who coded that stuff are the only ones to decide what to do with their stuff.
It would be unfair to let everyone to do anything.
So, it's me returning a favor.

Basically, this clause is just an exception from the general restrictive terms.

Yes, but what is your interest? (I've asked this earlier already ;)
Do you want to use other guys code as you'd like to?
Do you want to make it GPL and enforce that license to everyone else?
There's no way to make an open-source product w/o restrictions or imposing a certain behaviour.

Of course you will change the mods in a way that they will work best with Magichet, for obvious reasons.
I don't think it is really likely that one could extract a single mod cleanly out of Magichet without further changes, I guess.

Moreover, the mods I coded are inseparable from each other.

But there's no need to separate anything...
The game works and can be monetized in many ways.
The day I've changed the license I got rid of impostors, shut down projects who treated me like a slave and acquired some money to be able to develop MGC further. Moreover, I became able to place some bounties (and I *did* place them) on MT engine issues.

I don't know who's left in disgrace here but some unfair contingent.

Also, this exception only applies to the original mod author.

Who else should have the right?
I can only repeat myself: The guys who coded that stuff are the only ones to decide what to do with their stuff.
Should PilzAdam or TenPlus1 or anyone else wanted to make my changes available to everyone - they would have done it.

It's not like I'm forcing them to decide.
It's more like I have a strong faith that those ppl are interested in the Minetest future and that they will be able to what should and what can be backported from MGC.

I can't see why everyone should profit, but , hey! Gamers have a game to play for free, authors have full control over modified code...
The rest aren't really my business.
Really, I don't know why should I care for ppl whose help goes not to the devs, but just for the sake of making the code more "free".
But "freedom" is an illusion - GPL enforces it's rules upon everyone who uses it. I won't abide only because someone wants me to. I feel uneasy and anything but free.

Things would be easier if the whole subgame would fall under non-restrictive (read: no NC, no usage restrictions) terms instead.

Again, "easier" as in "easier for whom precisely"?
For me? No.
For the guys whose code I'm using? Certainly no, they have everything I got from them plus some more.
For players all over the world? Hell, no - they can play the game and modify it as they'd like to.
For those who wants to make profit w/o asking any of the authors whether they would like to be used? Bingo!

And again, the whole case can be settled in minutes by *asking*.
I've undergone that and didn't comply about it.
That's not scary or humiliating at all.
Just ask. Like I and many other did.
It all depends on whether a person *really* wants to play and/or to use the game.

This is not really convincing. I am not caring about what the Magichet license may be in 2 years when the stars and your mood are right. I care about the license in the present.

So, are you only care about the license after all?
Why not to contribute something beforehand?
Help me, show your interest in the game I'm making and I'll turn my face towards you.
If you don't want to, you still may ask me to let you perform a certain commercial activity.

And this explains your reasons to use NC in … what way exactly? o_O

Did I say that explains anything? O_o
You've mentioned some hypothetical "potential contributors", I told you that I didn't see any.

Literally no one wants to contribute.
But there are plenty of those who are bitching about the fact the license won't let them if they would ever wanted to.

Your motivation to choose NC is still unclear for me.
Do you want to talk about this?

It's all there in this very thread.
And no, I don't really want to talk about this.
Maybe I'm a total failure when it comes to explanations, but I doubt no one really gets why I've picked up NC license.
I want to be in control of where my stuff goes.
There's no need to pay me or anyone else. It's just that "please, bla-bla-bla" doesn't work.

Then you also know that CC-BY-NC is a toxic license (from the user perspective) at least in Germany, but for some reason still unknown to me, you still insist on it (or at least the idea of “non-commercial”)?

Once again: what "user"?
If you concerned about legal use in German, I'm open for making special terms for anyone who develops *and* uses MGC in Germany.

You seem to be pretty obsessed with that permission thing. ;-)

Not really. But repeating it helps me to defend my game against "give-me-this-and-go-fix-the-bugs-I-found-which-occured-only-because-I-have-a-different-view-on-a-game-you-are-coding-for-me" kind of people.
It is especially helpful against Russians, Ukrainians and Chinese :)

Well, the problem I have with that thinking is, the license is useless because it is so restrictive. Basically one can't do anything without your explicit permission.

You're wrong.
One can!
And by doing so he/she will automatically share his/her improvements with any other person there is.
In fact, the terms for re-distributing additions are even less restrictive than LGPL 2.1.
If you'd like to *probably* do something later - think ahead and ask for everything you'll need and you may end up "needing".

Explicit permission required only when one would like to profit upon my work.
I don't want to make the license say that I myself will monitor who is "breaking the rules".
I had made a mistake of stating that once and it cost me around $150 and 2 weeks of constantly increasing stressful tension.
The license should be nice to me and to those regular users. All the others has been given "a way".

That defeats the point of having a license altogether and one must treat Magicet as if it were fully protected by copyright.

This is only true for organizations.
Organizations can be small and can be very big.
I'd better protect myself from those bigger ones - they surely have at least one lawyer and I don't want to give someone like MS the right to use my work w/o making me happy as well ;)
Notch & Jeb did abuse MC community several times: pistons, horses, hostile mobs etc. And there were only how much of Mojang? 7? 8? IDK, but they used other peoples work only to make profit for themselves.
As for little ones - those are quite easy to communicate with and I don't see how I can't let some group of people to use my game commercially.

And no, it is not “hard” to ask for permission. That's not the point.

Good :)

And now imagine your want to build a subgame out of a set of these mods.

That's not a "game".
It's a "compilation" of mods.
Which no one wants to fix, because modders has other things to do.
I don't support those who only puts mods together for the sake of doing a great minetest_game based compilation - I've seen enough clones with little to no difference.
But don't get me wrong, ^that^ is not the reason for NC.

The game should be unique. I don't want to have lots of minetest_game/MGC clones/forks (but there are!).
The efforts get spread instead of being combined.

As for MGC - MOST mods are incompatible with it. At least the ones which add any blocks or tools.
There're not enough people who want to help with MGC itself, let alone writing a mod for it :)
Do you want to make a MGC-based game?
If that's the case, then join my troops or code a mod for it if you don't want too.
Besides, I'm pretty open to new features.
But I need to know that when some shit will happen, I won't be the only one who cares.

It would be a nightmare to get all those permissions and would require countless exchanges, plus delays (some people might be on vacation or something).

I know precisely how do you feel!
It took me around a month to gain Voltbuild under WTFPL terms.
That is why I've provided that much info on how to communicate with me: PM, e-mail, Github, GooglePlay, my own web page... I can't miss all of those - I'm not dead or anything. And even if those would fail, one should still be able to google for "4aiman" and learn as much as who I really am, my phone number, where do I work and where do I live. It's all there on the Internet - one only need to at least make some effort.

But I knew it was worth waiting.
I knew that in the case I won't get needed permissions I won't be able to redistribute within MGC it under NC license.
I knew that I'll be forced to code that stuff from scratch and that it would've thrown me months behind the schedule.
So I worked on re-coding the default and waited for lady luck.

In the case there weren't any WTFPL mods, then I'd have to code even more than I did.

I don't support those who are too proud to ask for a needed permission.
When it comes to licenses and code ppl tend to get carried away.

Say, what if I had *loads* of hoverboards...
made of LEGO-like parts...
with a linux-like OS...
that compiles itself upon boot from a sources...
supplied with the hoverboard...
and the only thing which was required to get as many as one would like to...
*for absolutely free*...
would have been making an unofficial request?
I'd say there would be a *loads* of requests.

Now, how many of those requests hadn't been made if there was a rule to NOT use those LEGO-hoverboards commercially as long as one didn't make another request?
I doubt that at least 10% of ppl would have gone indifferent to those hoverboards.

Magichet is a hoverboard in my eyes. It is unique, modular, features tons of unique elements, free, there's no need to "make mods work together", but a permission is needed to use commercially.

Luckily, most subgames and mods in these forums are released as free software under non-restrictive terms.

I don't really care about mods. I can't use those right away and I don't really want to.
I mean, look - there are plenty of great mods which are based upon minetest_game's mods.
More ~ores ~doors ~blocks ~mesecons ~whatever.
Back in the day I was mocked (in a really friendly way, so I didn't mind) by using over 70 tools to make enchantments possible.
But nowadays we have mesecons with lots of "wire_000000X", stairs with way more nodes than needed, doors mods which use the minetest_game/doors to register new doors with 3x more nodes than it is actually needed (w/o using meshnodes)...

And that would be enough for me, If those things "worked" like I wanted.
But, alas, no... those need to be fixed.
I'd better do things my way from the starts than lurk through the code I can't really read due to many reasons (one of them being the official "code style guide")




I really like MC eula terms, but those are even more restrictive
https://account.mojang.com/documents/minecraft_eula

[4aiman]

Working on villages re-enabling.
Have made several houses both unique and build by MC blueprints.
screenies

[Wuzzy]

Alright, I continue the “non-commercial” discussion here.

What are you motives for asking me?

Because of principles. I honestly reject the non-commercial clause on the grounds I already have stated a couple of times. Also, because Magichet is uniquie in the Minetest forums in that is has a rather restrictive license. Magichet is the black sheep.

Whom do you represent?

No one but myself.

I need real ppl, not just some random guys/gals who only want to tear my game apart to have even more generic mods.
Thanks, but no thanks ;)

Still no reason to make usage such a legal minefield then. So assume someone actually makes a “generic mod” out of your subgame. So what? This may be no gain for you, but certainly not a loss either. So why so restrictive?

There's no way to make an open-source product w/o restrictions or imposing a certain behaviour.

Bullshit! This is a step-to-step guide on how to do it:
Step 1: Make software.
Step 2: Release it as free software under WTFPL (or a similar license).

Yes, but what is your interest? (I've asked this earlier already ;)

Basically, I want Magichet to become free software. The license, however, makes it non-free software.

In order to do that, I want you to please do this:

• Drop all anti-commercial clauses without exceptions (line 5, line 15)
• Drop all usage restrictions without exceptions (line 6)

This is not a demand, just a request.

Really, I don't know why should I care for ppl whose help goes not to the devs, but just for the sake of making the code more "free".
But "freedom" is an illusion - GPL enforces it's rules upon everyone who uses it. I won't abide only because someone wants me to. I feel uneasy and anything but free.

Yes, the GPL enforces its rules. So does your license. What's your point? To be clear, I am not exactly a fan of the GPL (any version), but here's do a quick comparison to debunk your GPL bashing:

GPLv3 and GPLv2: No restrictions on usage whatsoever.
Magichet: Restricts usage of any kind of organization.

GPLv3 and GPLv2: No restrictions on commercial usage either.
Magichet: Forbids every kind of commercial usage. Is vague on what constitutes “commercial usage”.

GPLv3 and GPLv2: Strong copyleft.
Magichet: Not sure, but I would say there is no copyleft. Or if there is a copyleft at all, it's certainly weaker than in GPLv2 and GPLv3.

GPLv3: Disallows tivoization. (I won't explain it here, let's just say it's another restriction.)
GPLv2: Doesn't do that.
Magichet: Doesn't do that.

GPLv3 and GPLv2: Is a free software license.
Magichet: Is not a free software license (violates freedom 0 [usage for any purpose] and freedom 2 [distributon] pretty hard).

As you can see, the GPLv2 and GPLv3 have their points where they are more restrictive than your license, but in return your license has points where it is obviously much more restrictive than GPLv2 and GPLv3.

Anyways, I am not arguing that you now must switch your license to GPL. I didn't even mention it in the first place, so I don't know why you came up with GPL.

Also, because I am not sure you are aware of it, copyleft is not required for a software to be called “free software”.

I won't abide only because someone wants me to.

Frankly, I don't believe you. Or you're actually an anarchist, which is obviously not the case. ;) If you would truly not abide people “only because they want you to”, then you would have no reason to respect anyone's copyright (or license) either, because that would mean “abiding” to them. You would simply not care at all. But if that would be your honest position, then you would have no reason to expect others to respect your copyright either. You would be an Internet pirate who sails the seven BitTorrent seas. ;)
Probably not. Actually, you do abide by copyright and licenses of others, the proof is the fact that you take the time to rewrite code only/mostly (not sure) to avoid GPL/copyright collisions. If you “won't abide” you would have simply carried on and coded right away without caring about license and copyright at all.

And freedom is not an illusion. In fact, you do enjoy the freedom to use other people's code and artwork, because most stuff here is released as free software.

Remember this?:

It took me around a month to gain Voltbuild under WTFPL terms.

In the case there weren't any WTFPL mods, then I'd have to code even more than I did.

Even if you decide to write 100% of code by yourself, you still enjoy that freedom. Why? Because you could have used that work. Freedom is not about what you do, but what you could do.

So, are you only care about the license after all?

Yes.

Why not to contribute something beforehand?
Help me, show your interest in the game I'm making and I'll turn my face towards you.
If you don't want to, you still may ask me to let you perform a certain commercial activity.

Currently, I am not interested in contributing for Magichet. I have many other things I work on and I also just don't feel like it. It's as simple as that.

I am especially not interested in contributing to a proprietary software—which Magichet is.

Not really. But repeating it helps me to defend my game against "give-me-this-and-go-fix-the-bugs-I-found-which-occured-only-because-I-have-a-different-view-on-a-game-you-are-coding-for-me" kind of people.

What does that have to do with the permission thing? Just say “no”, say that you are not their slave (or whatever), or just ignore them altogether. If you want to shout it out publicly, your “permission thing” seems to miss the point: Wouldn't it be more logical to say something like “There is no point in demanding this-or-that from me, I am not your slave so I won't to it.” (this was just an example).

It is especially helpful against Russians, Ukrainians and Chinese :)

Stupid stereotypes are stupid.

Well, the problem I have with that thinking is, the license is useless because it is so restrictive. Basically one can't do anything without your explicit permission.

You're wrong.
One can!

Alright, fine. So there is something which is not directly restricted. But of what use is this?
The problem lies in the ambugiuty on what constitutes “commercial use” and on what constitues an “organization”. Those terms are very vague.

Therefore, it is not possible to safely assume that it is OK to use or re-use Magichet, because there is always the risk that <random activity X> can be seen as either as “part of an organization's work” or as “part of an commercial activity”. I already explained with the German example why this is a problem.
So even although you do not directly forbid derivates, what use is that if there are pretty heavy usage restrictions with broad (and ambugious) terms in place?
Do you think it would be fun to be allowed to modify and distribute your software, but using it is a legal minefield? How do you think that should work out? Writing source code but never executing/testing it? xD

Explicit permission required only when one would like to profit upon my work.

Not true, since your license also states:

- You do not use this subgame as an employee/member of any organization - commercial or not.

[rubenwardy]

I never tried to get you to change the license, all I said was:

1. Mods in Mod Releases need a download
2. NC mods aren't open source (when you said it was)

[4aiman]

+ "even more text"

Because of principles. I honestly reject the non-commercial clause on the grounds I already have stated a couple of times. Also, because Magichet is uniquie in the Minetest forums in that is has a rather restrictive license. Magichet is the black sheep.

I don't think it's a good idea to put anyone's principles over my own needs.
The game is free to play, to share and to develop upon.
Not every game allows one to do that.

Magichet is the black sheep.

You're right. Magichet turned out to find some demand (as in economics).
One can't say that much about every other game ever created.

Whom do you represent?

No one but myself.
Then, why do don't want to help?
If the license is only thing that stops you, I'd understand.
But it's not the wish to help me that stirred your interest, but your principles.
If you don't want to help, then what for should I change the license now, when there are still some guys exploiting my work?

Still no reason to make usage such a legal minefield then.

That's so thick...
Isn't it obvious?
Minefields are designed to make trespassers pay.

So assume someone actually makes a “generic mod” out of your subgame.

I don't want to discuss "assumptions".
That is pointless.
Everyone who needs something of me shall be granted he/she needs on a personal basis.
This lets me to block certain people even prior the cause damage to me and/or my game.

Step 2: Release it as free software under WTFPL (or a similar license).

And by doing so you restrict the author's behaviour to asking other to share their changes (made to the author's code) in case those "changers" would change the license.
So, there is at least one who suffers.
Also, please, refrain from "bullshitting" me again. That was offending.

Basically, I want Magichet to become free software. The license, however, makes it non-free software.

And why should I take your wish over mine? You could've created your own Magichet.
I'd consider your request if you'd wanted to help, but that's not the case, I guess...

This is not a demand, just a request.

But it really looks like one to me.
Making MGC open-source at this very moment will be like stabbing myself in a back.
I still have parasites to get rid of before I would be able to make MGC open source.

Yes, the GPL enforces its rules. So does your license. What's your point?

My point is you said my license is restrictive and prescriptive.
GPL is too.
So, if you really

not exactly a fan of the GPL

then why didn't you started with some other work?
It would have been so much easier to make some GPLed code to become WTFPL instead of trying your persuasion skills (sorry, but it looks exactly like exercising those) on MGC.

bashing

Ppl just love labels.
I'm not "bashing".
I'm saying that both GPL and MGC licenses are restrictive.
And I don't need any comparison. My code == my license (I'm not a gay! XD)

As you can see, the GPLv2 and GPLv3 have their points where they are more restrictive than your license, but in return your license has points where it is obviously much more restrictive than GPLv2 and GPLv3.

I'm perfectly aware of the differences. I wrote the license.
After all, I *wanted* the license to be more restrictive.

Also, because I am not sure you are aware of it, copyleft is not required for a software to be called “free software”.

I don't really care if MGC should or should not be called a "free software".
It's free to play, to change, to re-distribute, to host.
Everyone who needs more should ask me in the first place.
After that there's no way I will be able to sue anyone who got my approval.

Frankly, I don't believe you.
...
...
...
If you “won't abide” you would have simply carried on and coded right away without caring about license and copyright at all.

This has nothing to do with anyone believing me or not...
What you're talking about wasn't mine from the very beginning.
I can't just come up to you and demand you to do or to give me anything which is yours if you don't want to.
But that is equally efficient the other way around: you can't possibly to force me to give away something which is mine if I don't want to.
I guess that clarifies my words.

And freedom is not an illusion. In fact, you do enjoy the freedom to use other people's code and artwork, because most stuff here is released as free software.

No, I'm not enjoying it.
I had to go and ask many people as well as to rewrite load of code due to the terms of use "free software" enforces.

Remember this?:

Where does that sound as a "happy experience"?
Of course I was glad to gain the permissions I wanted, but that is not freedom. That is making myself a beggar.
Several people were very kind and showed me *true* freedom asking to let them have any fixes I would possibly make. I granted their humble request just like they granted humble mine.

Even if you decide to write 100% of code by yourself, you still enjoy that freedom. Why? Because you could have used that work. Freedom is not about what you do, but what you could do.

I could have had jumped out of my window when I was five. Does that count as a freedom?
I'm not interested in what I could do.
I'm alive.
I'm here right now.
And what I want right now is to... actually, that would be to have good nap...
...
but in this sentence something like "someone to help me right now instead of speculating how pretty the world may have been if there weren't any nuclear bombs invented" should go instead.

So, are you only care about the license after all?

Yes.

That makes me uninterested in any further discussion. No help, huge request. No deal.

Currently, I am not interested in contributing for Magichet. I have many other things I work on and I also just don't feel like it. It's as simple as that.

See above. I will listen to those who helped me only.

I am especially not interested in contributing to a proprietary software—which Magichet is.

This line is pointless.
You've already said you're not interested.
Speaking in your own words: I don't want to wait 2 years when you'll be in a right mood. ;)

What does that have to do with the permission thing? Just say “no”, say that you are not their slave (or whatever), or just ignore them altogether. If you want to shout it out publicly, your “permission thing” seems to miss the point: Wouldn't it be more logical to say something like “There is no point in demanding this-or-that from me, I am not your slave so I won't to it.” (this was just an example).

Oh really?..
And what about those who got my game, put in on sale and listed *my* e-mail as the "support" one?
Not only some guys were using me as a way to enrich themselves, but also forced me to tune my mail settings to filter most of the incoming messages.

Also, putting something like "I won't do it" may lead to MCG being rendered dead/obsolete/abandon-ware.
That is not the case and I actually want to apply fixes. (But not for someone to exploit).

Stupid stereotypes are stupid.

First of all, I am Russian myself. I know better what are Russians like. Of course I can't speak for all, but you need to be an Englishman to understand what a five-o-clock tea is.
Second, the guys who use(d) MGC to enrich are from Russia, Ukraine and China.
No stereotypes, just the facts.
The only stupid thing here is that comment of yours...

The problem lies in the ambugiuty on what constitutes “commercial use” and on what constitues an “organization”. Those terms are very vague.

The term "commercial use" can be found in CC international license. See CC's site to learn more about what that is.
If CC is not enough for you, then I don't know how to help you - I can't possibly describe that better than lawyers who wrote NC attribution.

As for "organization" - there's no internationally accepted description.
I don't think it is I who should invent one, as my definition won't be legally adopted by every other country there is.

Therefore, it is not possible to safely assume that it is OK to use or re-use Magichet

Do *not* assume.
Tell me all about your plans on MGC and we'll discuss those.
Be honest.

So even although you do not directly forbid derivates, what use is that if there are pretty heavy usage restrictions with broad (and ambugious) terms in place?

The problems of those who can't ask are not my problems.
And never be.
Unless those would learn to talk over matters.

Do you think it would be fun to be allowed to modify and distribute your software, but using it is a legal minefield? How do you think that should work out? Writing source code but never executing/testing it?

MGC is meant to be played for free. Anything over that should be discussed.

Not true, since your license also states:

- You do not use this subgame as an employee/member of any organization - commercial or not.

Say, some non-commercial organization wants to create some free activity club.
It takes MGC and launched ads with something like "Here we *do* gamedev".
And they got their club "up and running".
The "profit" here is expressed in audience member's count.

It all depends, though.
That is why there is a separate clause about the fact I'm willing to discuss and give out necessary permissions.

This is starting to become yet another holywar.
In order to rule out repetitions of the same text over and over, I'd like to clarify several things:
1. The license itself won't change in the nearest future.
2. I don't care whether ^that crosses someone's principles.
3. Here is the list of those to whom I will listen regarding the licensing (in no particular order):

+ Spoiler

PilzAdam,
Zeg9,
0gb_us,
Menche,
Chinchow,
TenPlus1,
wulfsdad,
Mossmanikin,
Ironzorg,
VanessaE,
cornernote,
Calinou,
sfan5,
xyz,
metalstache,
Kilarin,
Nore/Novatux,
Uberi/Temperest,
Jeija,
ElecricSolstice.

All ^those^ ppl have licensed some mods under WTFPL and I used at least parts of those in the following mods (in no particular order):

+ Spoiler

beds
boats
carts
bucket
builtin_item
creative
dye
ethereal
farming
fences
firestone
fishing
flowers
nether
quartz
villages
sethome
specialties
sponge
throwing
vessels
voltbuild
xpanes
zgc

If I missed someone - tell me.
4. As the license says, everyone in the list may do to the changed code whatever he/she pleases to, including re-releasing it under WTFPL.
If you'd like to make all changes I made to your mods to be re-licensed (pick any license of your choice), then tell me and I'll change the license for those mods within Magichet.
I can't promise making a separate mods with those changes included, though - I'm too busy with MGC.
Note, that I will respect the view of everyone in the list, but the mod's initial contributor's decision will be the defining one.
Until official request (or the moment entire MGC will become GPL-licensed) there will be no changes to the license of the mods above.

5. The following mods are the intellectual property of 4aiman:

+ Spoiler

4air
4armour
4doors
4gems (not really available ATM)
4hunger
4itemnames
4mcac
4stairs
4tools
adbs
breakdown
cake
compatibility
default
dougnuts
enchantment
exploration
game_rules
ghosts
gstone
jetpack
localization
mapp
minetest_kill_mod
tnt
whereis

No one but me will decide on the license of ^those^.

6. If someone would like to make me change the license of any mod/mods written by me - he/she can start contributing to that/those mod/mods.
The more your code goes in - the quicker you'll be able to claim the copyright.
I can't assure anyone, but as Wuzzy has pointed it out, I truly honored all the licenses of the mods I used and not used.
I may be stubborn, but I'm also honest.

7. I don't want to participate in hypothetical talks and I'm not interested in anything that is not connected with Magichet's development here.
Please, create a whole new thread to discuss MGC licensing issues. Invite me if you're interested in my remarks.

[4aiman]

@Rubenwardy
I don't really want to discuss or repeat the whole "unpleasant conversation".
In case you didn't edit/remove your posts (on that matter, I didn't), everyone should be able to make his/her own impression on what me or you have been trying to do.

Please, no more offtopic (e.g. non-MGC-development-related talks) here.

[zill]

Do you have comparison table for magiched over minetest ?
I really wonder what do you provide in your client version

I get error so i cant start game.

Your phone or window isn't wide enough to display the code box. If it's a phone, try rotating it to landscape mode.

Code: Select all

Error code
0xc000007b

Same here with the Win64 build.
Win32 build works like it should, so it doesn't seem to be a HDD issue.

[4aiman]

Do you have comparison table for magiched over minetest ?
I really wonder what do you provide in your client version

I get error so i cant start game.

Your phone or window isn't wide enough to display the code box. If it's a phone, try rotating it to landscape mode.

Code: Select all

Error code
0xc000007b

Same here with the Win64 build.
Win32 build works like it should, so it doesn't seem to be a HDD issue.

Not necessarily.
I've asked players for a feedback and got around 20 ppl with Win7 and Win8 x64 editions who reported that x64 build works just fine...
But with this report it makes 2 of you who have issues with the build.

I need more info:
Is that error a BSOD?
If it is, then the problem is really HW-related. I'll need Windows journals to tell what went wrong. (http://www.veeam.com/kb1873)

If it is not, then I need debug.txt (supply it anyway).
It would be helpful to get your config info (use cpu-z http://www.cpuid.com/downloads/cpu-z/cpu-z_1.73-en.exe), so maybe I will be able to find at least a similar one and test x64 build with that.
.

[Nore]

@4aiman As I am also for free software, I would like you to release the modifications you made to voltbuild under a free license please (the original LGPL license is fine with me).

[4aiman]

@4aiman As I am also for free software, I would like you to release the modifications you made to voltbuild under a free license please (the original LGPL license is fine with me).

Sure thing.
I'd like to continue to use your work, however, and LGPL isn't something that would help me.
Tell me, please, if you render this as a sufficient change:
All 3rd-party code became WTFPL-licensed within Magichet: https://github.com/4aiman/magichet-toda ... 41a15e2f35

[zill]

Do you have comparison table for magiched over minetest ?
I really wonder what do you provide in your client version

I get error so i cant start game.

Your phone or window isn't wide enough to display the code box. If it's a phone, try rotating it to landscape mode.

Code: Select all

Error code
0xc000007b

Same here with the Win64 build.
Win32 build works like it should, so it doesn't seem to be a HDD issue.

Not necessarily.

I need more info:
Is that error a BSOD? No
.

The problem is with the package that can be downloaded with the link provided in the first post of this topic (from dropbox mgc64.zip )
Link in your signature gives different package ( magichet_win64-1.2.1.zip ) and that works.

[4aiman]

Oh!
Can I have a screenshot of the error then?
(The thing is it is my signature that hasn't been updated)

[Nore]

@4aiman As I am also for free software, I would like you to release the modifications you made to voltbuild under a free license please (the original LGPL license is fine with me).

Sure thing.
I'd like to continue to use your work, however, and LGPL isn't something that would help me.

Well, I was thinking about double-licensing it, which would be compatible with both.

Tell me, please, if you render this as a sufficient change:
All 3rd-party code became WTFPL-licensed within Magichet: https://github.com/4aiman/magichet-toda ... 41a15e2f35

Perfect, thanks a lot!

[4aiman]

Well, I was thinking about double-licensing it, which would be compatible with both.

I've thought about that.
But the thing is, I've promised to do change the license *within* Magichet.
Albeit unintended, that *was* a promise. :)

Perfect, thanks a lot!

You shouldn't thank me, as you had all rights to do whatever you wanted with the Voltbuild (since it is itest-based) from the very beginning - the license explicitly states that much. :)
But since you didn't, I decided to not to wait until someone else would claim his/her code to be re-licensed.

[Minetestforfun]

Hello,

This post aims at explaining why the collaboration between MinetestForFun team and 4aiman ended, and more generally why it is impossible to work with 4aiman.

Let's start rough, to incitate you to understand this message and to keep reading it : 4aiman is quite stubborn, self-centered, and immature. Let's add that he has no respect for others, and that he treated the developers' team (more than 10 persons) as slaves/morons.

So, this is the complete and detailed story that 4aiman would have wanted to hide forever. This post is made by the MinetestForFun developers team, we will try to be the more accurate and illustrative we can.

PERMISSION TO USE THE SUBGAME

On the 21th of August 2015, the MinetestForFun developers team agreed on the fact that we still had spare ressources on our dedicated server, and that we should help another developer working alone improving/finalize their subgame faster.

I (MinetestForFun/Darcidride) proposed consequently to 4aiman (main modder of Magichet) to open a public server, to help him finalize his subgame. All of this were purely volunteerism, and goes from a good intention, without any counterpart. Just remember that no other public server at the moment ran his subgame. (4aiman himself admitted to us that he never tests his code on a public server)

After some discussions on the 21st and 22nd of August 2015, 4aiman agreed to grant us permission to use his subgame (which is under both permissive and restricted licenses). We all agreed, everything was fine until then.

The server opened a week later (time needed to attribute ressources to it, to reffine some scripts/cronjobs, to add some important mods for us, and also prepare the GitHub repository).

SERVER OPENING

Once the server opened, bug/crash reports started pouring over us, about thirty at least, considering that the subgame basically crashed every five minutes with 1 to 3 players at best... With 30 issues, wich we ordered with labels, we assigned about twenty of them to 4aiman, because the bugs are from his game, and that it is logical that he should fix them. After all, our team was not dedicated to fixing those errors which emanate from "upstream".

Remember that we were only here to host his subgame, to help him debugging his game more easily, and improving it. We were not in any case there to work with 4aiman to code his subgame.

This is the point he apparently didn't understand, because he unassigned him from 17 of the issues, as "only 3" of them "interested him" (I'm quoting). Then he let us clearly understand that he didn't care about the other issues, implying that it was easy for us to read the code and fix them, and that we would have to fix that on our own. Did this young man really understand why we gave him ressources to host his subgame?

Secondly, after a talk within the developers' team of the server, we agreed to remove the russian translation of the items' description from our server only, removing it from our repository (version used on our server). We judged it legitimate, considering that less than 5% of our servers' visitors are russian (probably less, real numbers would be closer to 1% of the players) and that english is more prevalent than russian. Thus, we removed this superfluous translation, duplicate of the english one. (In game we had english + russian, we turned them into only english, and when we look at the russian population of the forum, we couldn't dismiss our analysis.)

Discovering it, 4aiman got angry, and started a very unpolite points/counter system, giving the unpleasant feeling of him taking us from high up. He told us we had only 2 points left, implying that after two other modifications he wouldn't like, he would forbid our fork (which is wrong, it's not a fork, it's just a version with some little mods adds for grant us for example the possibility to monitoring the server, anyway ). 4aiman answered us in a very dumb and mean way, arguing that russian is more spoken than english in Minetest, and that whatever would happen there would be a lot of russian players (arguments which was neither logical nor thoughtful).

So, I argued back, explaining him with logic and analyzes why russian doesn't have its legitimate need to be in an "international" subgame, proposing him solutions to add russian translations optionally.
I added, following those disagreeable words, that we were here volountareely, and that we were not his slaves, thus he needed to treat us in better way otherwise the server wouldn't last long.

Consequently to my second answer, trying to bring him back to reason, he decided to take another point, and told us that we only had one left, without any other argumentation.

CLOSURE OF THE SERVER

Here is the discussion, and the final moments. We can also see my final response, which will close our collaboration http://i.imgur.com/iEN7mrp.png (you can see at the top the logical and thoughtful answer that I sent and then, lower, his thoughtless one, and finally, my closure message at the bottom of the picture).

Because we closed the repository all of a sudden and from fear that he had not read our final message, I decided to send him in a PM, the following picture : http://i.imgur.com/Yi0x9Xh.png. Here is his answer, still stained with the same patronizing way of interacting : http://i.imgur.com/OfXMGDH.png
Here is my definitive response, after consultation of the team : http://i.imgur.com/wruCy9P.png.
The discussion is closed.

Finally, to prove us the full expansion of his mental maturity (again...), 4aiman, angry, sent me (MinetestForFun) private messages on freenode with random nicknames to insult me in both french and english (with doubtful and funny translations).

CONCLUSION

We hope to have done our best for everybody to understand 4aiman's state of mind, who, in our opinion, is an immature capricious child, imbued of himself.

SIGNATURES

[Mg]

Okay, so, being the developer who removed the russian translation from our repository, which is kind of the spark that ignited all of this, I have to react to all of this, personally. I would like first to clarify some points here :
- Our goal was not to help 4aiman in his coding work, but to provide him a public server to run his subgame, and report the issues in our repository. We wanted to fix our modifications, only our modifications (other mods, little tweaks, etc).
- The specific commit that deactivated russian translation on our server was meant by me to be as little as possible. Indeed, it impacted only one mod, localization (which, according to its name, should do more than translating in russian but that's only my point of view), and was only adding a few lines :

Your phone or window isn't wide enough to display the code box. If it's a phone, try rotating it to landscape mode.

Code: Select all

mods/localization/init.lua | 4 ++++
 1 file changed, 4 insertions(+)

diff --git a/mods/localization/init.lua b/mods/localization/init.lua
index 741213a..cb03bbe 100755
--- a/mods/localization/init.lua
+++ b/mods/localization/init.lua
@@ -2,6 +2,7 @@ local total = 0
 --local locale_rus = os.setlocale('Russian_Russia.65001',"ctype")
 --local locale_rus = os.setlocale('en_US',all)
 localization = {}
+localization.enabled = false
 localization.locale_rus_chr = os.setlocale('ru_RU.CP1251',"all")
 localization.locale_rus_num = os.setlocale('C',"numeric")
 localization.untranslated = {}
@@ -2191,6 +2192,9 @@ localization.translations = {
 }
 
 
+if not localization.activated then
+   return
+end
 for name,def in pairs(minetest.registered_items) do
     local total2=total
     if name and name~='' and localization.translations[name] and localization.translations[name]~='' and not def.trans then


Also, this commit concerned our server, and was not meant to be necessarily merged into 4aiman's repository, but if it was, I even modified in a way that would be reversible and gave choice to the users to disable/enable this feature. I will not argue about the importance of Russian in Minetest, I've seen many russian speaking persons among the community, and that's just fine, but it's not event the second most present language.

As the person who looked into the code, to try to understand how it worked, to fix some crashes as best as I could with the few hours I had spent playing Magichet, and about half an hour of code reading, I can also say that our team would not have had enough time/people to read and understand Magichet's code, and fix the 17 issues judged by 4aiman as "not interesting".

I should also insist on a last point that is personal to me, the fact that you, 4aiman, used my nickname, Mg, to denigrate our team, and in the same post, declare that you won't allow any fork (which is not good, in my opinion, this is just a childish reaction), and then, advertise the new features of your subgame, which I find despicable.
EDIT: Here is the post : viewtopic.php?f=50&t=10507&start=175#p191090

I hoped you liked to read that.

[4aiman]

Er.... what? O_o
Aside from that being a lie you're went offtopic. Reported.
How nice of you to provide so many evidences of your aggression and mockery. :)

[Mg]

Well, then maybe we should start a new thread to debate about that "lie". What do you think about that?

[4aiman]

Well, then maybe we should start a new thread to debate about that "lie". What do you think about that?

Do as you wish. just remove any non-development posts made by you or your team from this thread.

[Minetestforfun]

Really ? You scream and say that it's a lie... You could at least be honest ! Look at the detailed story and the number of signatory.

Your mindset is disastrous...

Further proof, that we did well to post event analysis on the forum, it's visible to everyone eyes. Everyone can now understand the reality about your behavior. (for the last they didn't see it for the moment...)

And if you want to report other posts we did, you can do it, links are here :

- French forum (FR, with testimonials) : viewtopic.php?f=20&t=13244
- Server (EN) : viewtopic.php?f=10&t=13296

Compared to you, we are the most honest we can. Sorry for you, we know you were not going to like the story gets out.