[WIP] Goblins [mobs_goblins]

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Re: [WIP] Goblins [mobs_goblins]

by philipbenr » Wed Aug 26, 2015 23:00

Ben wrote:
FreeLikeGNU wrote:Yes most of them put out torches.. The light hurts their eyes


Hehe... pair this with my Beware the Dark mod, and this goes from annoying to downright deadly :-P


viewtopic.php?f=9&t=11517

...and survival...

I would actually try and make a subgame out of this...
 

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Re: [WIP] Goblins [mobs_goblins]

by FreeLikeGNU » Wed Aug 26, 2015 23:04

Survival: Beware the goblin hordes in the dark! Sounds like a winner %\D
 

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Re: [WIP] Goblins [mobs_goblins]

by Ferk » Wed Aug 26, 2015 23:55

I haven't tried it yet but I really like the concept and the graphics. It even looks professional.
Also goblins is fitting for the caves and original (vs minecraft). It would be awesome if mobs like this (+ animals) were added to the official game.

I just wish there was a stable/efficient mob API. How many goblins can be in the same area before the game starts to lag?
Last edited by Ferk on Wed Aug 26, 2015 23:58, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: [WIP] Goblins [mobs_goblins]

by philipbenr » Wed Aug 26, 2015 23:57

Depends on your CPU (and GPU too a bit I suppose...)

There are multiple, but not many are stable and good...
 

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Re: [WIP] Goblins [mobs_goblins]

by FreeLikeGNU » Thu Aug 27, 2015 01:16

Ferk wrote:I haven't tried it yet but I really like the concept and the graphics. It even looks professional.
Also goblins is fitting for the caves and original (vs minecraft). It would be awesome if mobs like this (+ animals) were added to the official game.

I just wish there was a stable/efficient mob API. How many goblins can be in the same area before the game starts to lag?


Thanks for the compliments!

I really wish that some basic mob functionality were part of minetest too, even if not in minetest_game or optional defaulted as off. What would we sacrifice in flexibility with the speed gain from this being part of the engine, coded in C++?

I've been really torn over mob API, but I chose that from TenPlus1's mobs redo as its well featured and flexible. I think Calinou's carbone_mobs is also good, but I would not know how to get the additional functionality into it without making it a mess.
 

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Re: [WIP] Goblins [mobs_goblins]

by Nathan.S » Thu Aug 27, 2015 01:47

In response to how many goblins can be in an area before it starts to lag, I had a whole bunch in this video, and noticed no lag, and I was recording the screen at the same time. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S3exoLdEw_Y
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Re: [WIP] Goblins [mobs_goblins]

by Don » Thu Aug 27, 2015 03:52

Nathan.S wrote:In response to how many goblins can be in an area before it starts to lag, I had a whole bunch in this video, and noticed no lag, and I was recording the screen at the same time. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S3exoLdEw_Y

This would be awesome with your survival game. I will have to try it.
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Re: [WIP] Goblins [mobs_goblins]

by Ferk » Thu Aug 27, 2015 07:44

Nathan.S wrote:I had a whole bunch in this video, and noticed no lag, and I was recording the screen at the same time. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S3exoLdEw_Y


This was in a singleplayer world, right?

Have you tried on multiplayer?

FreeLikeGNU wrote:What would we sacrifice in flexibility with the speed gain from this being part of the engine, coded in C++?


I might be wrong, but I have the feeling the language is not the limiting factor. Also, I'd guess if the behavior of the mobs was too complex for LuaJit to handle it would probably also not be simple enough to be part of a generic and flexible official API in C++.

I think the problem is that in minetest there's always too much going on in the server. Even things that could be done completely clientside, like ambient sounds, have to be modded through the server. It also causes visual glitches in chests because their shown content is too much server-driven, even if you are the only player messing with the chest (actually... it happens even in singleplayer). The network communication wouldn't be efficient if the server has to report to each player each single change of direction that a mob could do.

Imho, we need mobs to be loaded client-side using a deterministic pseudo-random algorithm, and the server should only coordinate with the clients when the status of the mob changes (like getting hurt, or any other interaction with a player that wouldn't be possible to extrapolate) or when they interact with the environment (like removing/placing a node, or any action that would affect something in the map that is supposed to be synchronous).
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Re: [WIP] Goblins [mobs_goblins]

by Nathan.S » Thu Aug 27, 2015 11:36

The video was recorded in singleplayer. I have not used any mods in multiplayer, aside from the few servers that I've visited that had some, but I've never run a server.
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Re: [WIP] Goblins [mobs_goblins]

by Ben » Thu Aug 27, 2015 20:00

philipbenr wrote:viewtopic.php?f=9&t=11517

...and survival...

I would actually try and make a subgame out of this...

FreeLikeGNU wrote:Survival: Beware the goblin hordes in the dark! Sounds like a winner %\D


Yes! Of course, Survival is much more than this, but a minimalistic subgame where the goal was to <do thing> while a horde of goblins tries to trap you in deadly darkness… sounds cool! Maybe a short "delivery quest" in a randomly generated dungeon, getting harder each level ;-)
 

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Re: [WIP] Goblins [mobs_goblins]

by FreeLikeGNU » Thu Aug 27, 2015 23:24

Added Digger Goblin and adjusted some spawn and replacement rates... enjoy!
 

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Re: [WIP] Goblins [mobs_goblins]

by Don » Fri Aug 28, 2015 16:01

The Goblins are very destructive. They keep messing up my stairs to the mine and they make holes everywhere.
They also keep taking the torches. I am using the bewareofthedark mod and it makes it really hard to mine.
Loving it. The challenge makes the game more fun. Thanks for your work.
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Re: [WIP] Goblins [mobs_goblins]

by Ferk » Fri Aug 28, 2015 21:45

Maybe some of these sounds could be useful instead of the pig snorting, they are CC0: http://opengameart.org/content/goblins-sound-pack

Or maybe these, if you want it more scary: http://opengameart.org/content/monster- ... k-volume-1
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Re: [WIP] Goblins [mobs_goblins]

by FreeLikeGNU » Sat Aug 29, 2015 02:38

Ferk wrote:Maybe some of these sounds could be useful instead of the pig snorting, they are CC0: http://opengameart.org/content/goblins-sound-pack

Or maybe these, if you want it more scary: http://opengameart.org/content/monster- ... k-volume-1


Those are really good for attack and death sounds! We still need some subtle breathing sounds for ambient.
 

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Re: [WIP] Goblins [mobs_goblins]

by Ferk » Sat Aug 29, 2015 09:25

Do you mean the first ones or the scarier ones?
The scarier ones might have some sounds usable as breathing.

For the first one it might be harder to find something fitting for breathing. If you choose that one there's this sound that could be used maybe when they become aggressive (not sure if mobs_redo supports a sound effect for that though): http://opengameart.org/content/alarm-vocal

Maybe I could do some sound manipulation and change the pitch to some standard breathing sound.
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Re: [WIP] Goblins [mobs_goblins]

by FreeLikeGNU » Sat Aug 29, 2015 17:55

Updated with new sounds found by Ferk, thanks!
 

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Re: [WIP] Goblins [mobs_goblins]

by FreeLikeGNU » Sat Aug 29, 2015 19:43

I'd really like to have the goblin king place random loot chests - these chests would get their loot using the function like that in AdventureTest:
https://github.com/Bremaweb/adventurete ... /nodes.lua lines 791-843
 

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Re: [WIP] Goblins

by duane » Thu Sep 03, 2015 02:18

I like the goblins. The only thing that bugs me is the way they ruin the natural shape of caves. They don't dig tunnels as often as pits, which they frequently fall into, and they leave isolated blocks floating in the air. I saw one spot where it looked like they'd built a bridge, but I guess they just hollowed it out.

On the other hand, they make it dead easy to find ore. And, of course, they fall off of cliffs a lot. I spent the last fifteen minutes at the bottom of a waterfall in a huge cavern, watching them plunge to their deaths and collecting their drops. Heh.

I had to turn off the constant "nodes found by" messages. Industrious little buggers.

FreeLikeGNU wrote:I thinks the fish wont spawn because of the water_level check and some other things.... when I raised that, I got them to spawn at higher elevations, but they were spawning just above the water.


I'd like to hear how that works for you. The rivers could be problematic since flyers in mobs only move horizontally. I did some code to make them gain and lose altitude, but then I decided it didn't add much, so I took it back out. Plus, they look kind of silly going up without facing up.
 

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Re: [WIP] Goblins [mobs_goblins]

by Ferk » Thu Sep 03, 2015 08:02

I think that as a WIP mod that's fine, but maybe the goblins should be less common and a bit more concentrated in particular areas. So that it's more of a discovery to manage to find a den of goblins. You still could get some solitary goblin explorer that starts messing up your cave, but it shouldn't be as frequent as in the WIP version of the mod.

This way it wouldn't be too much of a problem if they deform the caves structure. And if there are cobble goblins before diggers appear (or if the caves where they spawn already contain cobble) then the moss will prevent the diggers from messing up too much

Though I agree they should dig the floor much less frequently than the walls, they always end up building pits and killing themselves on them. It would be cool if they made actual passages. Maybe make it so if the dig direction is not down, instead of just removing 1 block, remove 2 so that they can go through the hole, and then make them walk into it and have a bigger chance to continue digging straight in the same direction. Probably this alone would make it more likely for them to create random passages in crazy patterns, like a maze.

They would still destroy your cave structure anyway but that's not necessarily a bad thing they are goblins after all, they should be annoying :P

Then when you find those random patterns when you are exploring you will immediately realise: this is goblins work! they must be close..
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Re: [WIP] Goblins [mobs_goblins]

by Ferk » Thu Sep 03, 2015 08:52

FreeLikeGNU wrote:I'd really like to have the goblin king place random loot chests - these chests would get their loot using the function like that in AdventureTest:
https://github.com/Bremaweb/adventurete ... /nodes.lua lines 791-843


I'm probably going a bit overboard, but I was thinking it would be really cool if the king placed some empty goblin_chest and have the goblin gatherers fill it up with stone/fungi/ores (instead of complex pathfinding maybe at random intervals the chest transfers the inventory of all the surrounding goblins into itself).. then have the king check on the chest and convert the trash in there into ingots, tools and stuff with increasingly higher value (when the chest finds a king do the transformations, something like.. 2 cobble -> 1 stone, 20 stone -> 1 iron, 3 iron -> 1 pickaxe).

Then some goblins may consume some of the stuff there to get "upgraded" into stronger versions of themselves that are able to gather more over time (maybe just cheat and have a chance of getting 1 extra item every time an upgraded goblin gathers something). So we would have a developing community of goblins that would generate better loot the stronger they are.

You could even extend the idea and add some mechanisms for the player to influence the way they develop (like some "goblin pheromones" to indicate where they should dig or farm), guide them to be more efficient, prepare structures for them and turn it into some sort of RTS game :P ...it would be cool to have a "goblins vs gnomes" subgame where 2 players can help grow their respective team of little guys and end up designing strategies for sending them to fight each other for territory, attempting to kill the enemy's king (and thus stopping the enemy's evolution)

If you are on the side of the goblins, for example, you could talk with the king as an advisor and tell him to build more swords vs pickaxes, so you could decide the balance of how many of the goblins are fighters.

But that would probably be an extremely ambitious project, and in a different direction from what you are doing.
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Re: [WIP] Goblins [mobs_goblins]

by FreeLikeGNU » Thu Sep 03, 2015 14:49

Ferk wrote:I think that as a WIP mod that's fine, but maybe the goblins should be less common and a bit more concentrated in particular areas. So that it's more of a discovery to manage to find a den of goblins. You still could get some solitary goblin explorer that starts messing up your cave, but it shouldn't be as frequent as in the WIP version of the mod.


I've boosted the chance of encountering goblins considerably since the first iteration as they were a bit too rare for my personal taste. I'll probably dial this down once they are spawning in more interesting ways, as I get closer to non-wip status, and include an easier way to configure this.

Though I agree they should dig the floor much less frequently than the walls, they always end up building pits and killing themselves on them. It would be cool if they made actual passages. Maybe make it so if the dig direction is not down, instead of just removing 1 block, remove 2 so that they can go through the hole, and then make them walk into it and have a bigger chance to continue digging straight in the same direction. Probably this alone would make it more likely for them to create random passages in crazy patterns, like a maze.

They would still destroy your cave structure anyway but that's not necessarily a bad thing they are goblins after all, they should be annoying :P


I think I can make this work without fuss. Currently all goblins search in all directions to replace nodes. Adding another replacement function for more specialized behavior is planned. There will be pit digging goblins returning at some point though, for making nasty traps, but getting goblins to avoid these traps themselves will be a bit more work.

Then when you find those random patterns when you are exploring you will immediately realise: this is goblins work! they must be close..


That is certainly the idea. I think minetest needs the option for creatures that actually interact with the world (including things made by the player) and change it. Entropy acts upon everything we do in the real world and makes for challenge, why should that not be the case here?
 

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Re: [WIP] Goblins [mobs_goblins]

by duane » Fri Sep 04, 2015 06:54

Ferk wrote:I think that as a WIP mod that's fine, but maybe the goblins should be less common and a bit more concentrated in particular areas.


I definitely don't want them much rarer. I'm growing more and more fond of them, and once you start mining out the ore, they vamoose pretty quickly as it is. I've been exploring a big cave with three waterfalls in it that twisted and turned quite a bit when I first saw it. After a couple of (RL) days visiting it occasionally, they managed to dig some grueling 3D mazes that went up over and through all the ore. I wasn't worried about falling so much as digging in the wrong place and drowning myself. (I thought I was good at placing torches, but a couple of times I got confused and was down to no air before I managed to breathe.)

I'd love to start a contest for screenshots of the most complicated maze, but a 2D picture would never do them justice.

As much as it would irritate me, I think they ought to have the option to steal the ore (or maybe some types -- they might only care about steel for weapons, or just precious metals). It doesn't make much sense otherwise. On the other hand, that would prompt me to kill them off, and I wouldn't get to see the complicated mazes.

They've also been surprisingly hesitant to steal my torches. I left them everywhere, and only a few vanished. They mostly dug and cobbled.

Another thing that would be really cool would be if we could make their eyes glow in the dark... really obviously, so you see lots of little glowing eyes in the distance when you enter a cavern. Maybe a darker texture with exaggeratedly bright eyes (and possibly emitting light 1) which changes to the normal one when the player gets closer?
 

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Re: [WIP] Goblins [mobs_goblins]

by Nathan.S » Fri Sep 04, 2015 12:26

Glowing eyes would be cool, not sure if that could readily be implemented though, but I'm in favour of it.
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Re: [WIP] Goblins [mobs_goblins]

by FreeLikeGNU » Fri Sep 04, 2015 14:35

duane wrote:As much as it would irritate me, I think they ought to have the option to steal the ore (or maybe some types -- they might only care about steel for weapons, or just precious metals). It doesn't make much sense otherwise. On the other hand, that would prompt me to kill them off, and I wouldn't get to see the complicated mazes.

They've also been surprisingly hesitant to steal my torches. I left them everywhere, and only a few vanished. They mostly dug and cobbled.

Another thing that would be really cool would be if we could make their eyes glow in the dark... really obviously, so you see lots of little glowing eyes in the distance when you enter a cavern. Maybe a darker texture with exaggeratedly bright eyes (and possibly emitting light 1) which changes to the normal one when the player gets closer?


I thought about them stealing ore, but I think that could be frustrating for the player, as their ai can "sense" ore even behind layers of rock currently. For this to work, they would have to put this in some kind of inventory and drop upon kill. Because the eventually expire, I'm not sure I want them to leave a pile of ore behind and have players just waiting for them to do all the mining and die. Perhaps if they were all aggressive and made it a challenge to have them running about mining?
 

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Re: [WIP] Goblins [mobs_goblins]

by Don » Fri Sep 04, 2015 14:40

With goblins digging, if I play every day for an hour after a year of playing how much of the ground would be gone?
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Re: [WIP] Goblins [mobs_goblins]

by FreeLikeGNU » Fri Sep 04, 2015 23:26

Update Goblins with (hopefully) improved search and replace:
from the new api.lua :
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Code: Select all
      search_rate = def.search_rate, --how often to we search for nodes?
      -- how often do we lookfor nodes above or below? (relative to nodes around us, will be same if undefined)
      search_rate_above = def.search_rate_above or 1,
      search_rate_below = def.search_rate_below or 1,
      -- how far away can we look for nodes?
      search_offset = def.search_offset or 0,
      search_offset_above = def.search_offset_above or 0,
      search_offset_below = def.search_offset_below or 0,
      replace_rate = def.replace_rate, -- how likely is a node we found replaced?
      -- what nodes will be replaced?
      replace_what = def.replace_what,
      replace_with = def.replace_with,

With this functionality the diggers seem to dig better tunnels. I also adjusted the collision box for goblins so that they can fit in a 1 node high tunnel... this should make following diggers a bit more challenging. Cobblers are also far more industrious this time around.
 

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Re: [WIP] Goblins [mobs_goblins]

by duane » Sat Sep 05, 2015 04:36

FreeLikeGNU wrote:I thought about them stealing ore, but I think that could be frustrating for the player, as their ai can "sense" ore even behind layers of rock currently.


I'd definitely make it optional, disabled by default, but as things are, they expose all the ore in an area, so it's really no different than just going out and picking it up. I was mainly thinking that it makes mining too easy, but of course more aggression would counter that. You might also consider having one type that randomly moves ore around without pocketing it -- maybe they like to line their lairs/tunnels with it.

I hope that at some point they'll build tunnels that connect a lot of caves together, making mods like intersection less necessary. It seems silly, considering how easy it is to dig in this game, but it's much more fun for me to find a tunnel or cave than it is to make one.

With this functionality the diggers seem to dig better tunnels. I also adjusted the collision box for goblins so that they can fit in a 1 node high tunnel... this should make following diggers a bit more challenging. Cobblers are also far more industrious this time around.


Oooo. Short collision box. That's just not fair. I have to find time this weekend to check it out.
 

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Re: [WIP] Goblins [mobs_goblins]

by TenPlus1 » Sat Sep 05, 2015 13:45

I've re-written Goblins to use Mobs Redo as a base without changing the Api, and using the do_custom function from within mob definitions to dig/mine/take torches etc instead...

Update (7 Sep '15): the do_custom routine uses the original search & replace code from the main mod only included in goblin definition instead of changing api...
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Re: [WIP] Goblins [mobs_goblins]

by ArguablySane » Sat Sep 05, 2015 14:18

duane wrote:I hope that at some point they'll build tunnels that connect a lot of caves together, making mods like intersection less necessary. It seems silly, considering how easy it is to dig in this game, but it's much more fun for me to find a tunnel or cave than it is to make one.

It would be cool to make their tunneling/building behaviour less random. My suggestion would be as follows:

First, they don't spawn randomly. Goblins spawn inside lair/nest/cave things which are generated randomly underground. These can start off unconnected to anything else, but that will soon change.

To add more coherence to their digging, each tribe of goblins should have a plan of the tunnels they want to dig out. This could be generated in a very similar way to any normal cave/building generator, but rather than carving it into the map it should be saved somewhere for later use. Now, the digger goblins simply find bits of rock which are marked as open space on the plan and remove them, while the builder goblins build bridges wherever a tunnel intersects a natural cave.
If you wanted to, you could use various tricks to make this tunnel network "plan" extend across the entire map so the goblins never run out of things to do.
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Re: [WIP] Goblins [mobs_goblins]

by FreeLikeGNU » Sat Sep 05, 2015 15:07

TenPlus1 wrote:I've re-written Goblins to use Mobs Redo as a base without changing the Api, and using the do_custom function from within mob definitions to dig/mine/take torches etc instead...


Wow, thanks for merging the goblins to work with upstream mobs_redo!

EDIT: @TenPlus1: currently they only spawn, but the goblins don't act on nodes and debugging is broken... I'm testing with latest mobs redo.
 

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